Welcome to the Hotstove! As always, I'm your host, Travis Yost.
With the recent fallout from the collision between Milan Lucic and Ryan Miller(video below), our roundtable - consisting of Richard Cloutier, Adam French, Shaune Vetter, John Jaeckel, Mark Spizziri, and Bill Meltzer - discussed whether or not Brendan Shanahan was in the right by not handing out supplemental discipline, and whether or not the National Hockey League as a whole is better or worse off because of it.
As always, make sure to weigh in below. What would you have done if you were Brendan Shanahan?
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Travis Yost: Am I the only one who thinks that there's a gray area with this hit, perhaps moreso than any other hit in recent history?
When I first saw the collision, I immediately wondered why Milan Lucic would take such an obvious and blatant penalty deep in the Buffalo zone. In no way, shape, or form did his 'run' of Ryan Miller help his team. It did, however, give credence to the widespread belief that Buffalo's icing a rather 'soft' team by definition, but I digress.
Buffalo had every right to stick up for their goalie in that spot - even with Lucic in the box - and failed. They let their #1 goaltender and face of the franchise hit the deck without any kind of return fire, and that alone is amazing. I don't champion fighting when it's goon versus goon, but at some point in the game, referees and coaches alike understand that the sport must be 'policed' in some elements by the players on the ice. Here was a perfect example, and yet we saw nothing after the hit.
When it comes to the Brendan Shanahan decision, I think the Dean of Discipline should've made a pseudo-stance by fining Lucic for a run. What does a fine do, you ask? Easy - it gets him and the league office off of the hook they're currently residing on when it comes to runs on the goaltender. Without so much as even the slightest reprimand the way of Milan Lucic, some coaching staffs have freely admitted that the netminders aren't exactly 'protected men' anymore. That may be the case, but doesn't that open up a serious can of worms? What's to stop Jack Capuano from icing Trevor Gillies and having him absolutely bulldoze the opposition's goaltender the next time the Islanders have a heated game? Paul MacLean and Zenon Konopka? Dan Bylsma and Matt Cooke? You can pretty much pick a name for any team, but you see where I'm going here.
A suspension, though, would've been another step down that slippery slope of the dreaded 'no-contact league' that some have speculated on ever since the league office promised to clean up the game. I highly, highly doubt that's the direction anyone really wants to go right now.
A fine would've made a statement that Lucic's actions were irresponsible, but not quite abhorrent. He could've avoided contact, but by that same token, Shanahan admits that the speed and intensity of the game put both in a poor position.
And, when another situation arises down the road, he has flexibility on the ruling - that's the most important part of all this.
I'm going to cringe the next time a goaltender is run by a team and said player faces a potential suspension. Regardless of the outcome, Shanahan will look contradictory, much in the same manner that Colin Campbell did just one year ago.
Richard Cloutier: Milan Lucic should have served a suspension and liked it.
You can't run goalies. Lucic is full of poop if he says he couldn't have avoided hitting Ryan Miller. Anyone could have avoided that hit.
The league has to do two things by disciplining players: First is, they need to deal with an offense to make players accountable for their actions. Second goal is to provide disciplinary measures that will act as some sort of deterrent to potential future events. The NHL's non-punishment of Lucic got it wrong on both fronts. They let a player get away with a bad hit that could have been prevented, and they set a precedent that declares it's okay to hit goalies. If I was Buffalo, the next Bruins/Sabres game, I'm bringing up my biggest elephant from the AHL to steamroll the Bruins goalie.
Of course, the league's decision had everything to do with it being the Boston Bruins. We saw with the non-decision last season involvoing Zdeno Chara that two different sets of rules are enforced by the NHL. If I was more skeptical, I'd suggest some people in the NHL's head office are on the take. Instead, I'll simply suggest that if this was a situation where Tyler Myers ran Tim Thomas and injured him, Myers would be missing some games. League officials might not be bought off, but they certainly and obviously play favorites with teams.
I hate fighting in the game, but if the league isn't going to do something to deter stupid plays like Lucic's, maybe we need more fights. Since the league won't give Lucic a black eye for giving the game a black eye, perhaps violence is the solution. Which, when you think about it, gives the league a black eye. Anyway you slice it, someone deserves a punch in the back of the head.
John Jaeckel: Shanahan whiffed on this one.
The issue here seems pretty clear cut: non-incidental contact and intent to injure or at the very least, to knock the goalie off his feet (which by definition, could lead to injury).
Should it have been a long suspension? No, really a game would have sufficed. Miller wasn't hurt. But "no harm, no foul" is not the rule.
If you look at the tape, you see Lucic make no effort to pull off and avoid contact.
But more important, you see his arms extended and raised in order to "maximize" the effect of the hit. No one who has played hockey (at really any level) should see that for anything but what it was: an attempt to embellish the impact of the hit.
Further, the rules (as I understand them) and the refereeing on the ice for years, has provided a measure of protection for goalies outside the crease.
NHL Rule 42: "A goalkeeper is not “fair game” just because he is outside the goal crease area. The appropriate penalty should be assessed in every case where an opposing player makes unnecessary contact with a goalkeeper. However, incidental contact, at the discretion of the referee, will be permitted when the goalkeeper is in the act of playing the puck outside his goal crease provided the attacking player has made a reasonable effort to avoid such contact."
As long as that's the case, there's a degree to which goalies are exposed in terms of not protecting themselves.
Had Lucic merely bumped Miller, this might be a different conversation. He didn't. He clearly also tried to knock him off his feet when he wasn't expecting it.
A penalty was warranted for the contact. And further league discipline was warranted for the added attempt to maximize the hit.
I have no idea why Shanahan chose to let this one go.
Bill Meltzer: As is often the case in hockey and life, the truth lies somewhere in the middle of the Bruins' and Sabres' versions of the Milan Lucic - Ryan Miller incident.
The charge was a clear-cut penalty and a dumb one at that. The rules are clear that goalies are never fair game for body checks, and there was a chance to avoid contact (no matter what Lucic claims).
I thought that Bruins announcer Jack Edwards made a ludicrous statement in saying "These are the kind of penalties you love to kill for your teammate." No, it wasn't a good penalty whatsoever.
Lucic wasn't going for the puck anymore and it simply became a silly offensive zone penalty caused by overzealousness.
Now with all that said, the play was hardly a capital crime and was not a suspendable offense. It was a penalty because Miller is a goalie. If he played any other position on the ice, the NHL wouldn't have given it a second look in terms of considering a suspension to Lucic.
The result was unfortunate (Miller subsequently was revealed to be concussed) but Brendan Shanahan did the right thing with no supplemental discipline here.
In terms of whether it creates a slippery slope of taking runs at goalies, I don't think that's the case. Goalies are not fair game to be checked -- it's an automatic penalty. If there is enough recklessness behind it, it's going to be suspension-worthy on the same basis as a similar hit to a position player.
I understand the argument that goalies should be fair game for clean "finish your check" hits when they leave their crease, but I think that is where a slippery slope starts to get created. The no-contact rule exists to protect goalies, and should stay as is.
By the way, the Sabres needed to do a much better job at responding to Lucic and the Bruins on the spot. Teammates need to stand up for one another when they are trying to make a hockey play and get steamrolled, and stand up for their goalie in particular.
Mark Spizziri: Brendan Shanahan made the right call on the Lucic/Miller collision.
Milan Lucic was rightfully penalized on the play, as the rules suggest he should have been. However, in this particular instance, a suspension did not seem warranted. It was a loose puck that Ryan Miller came well out of his crease to play. Now, I'm not suggesting that anytime a goaltender comes out of the crease, he is fair game for opposing players to hammer with a body check. Yet in this case, Lucic had committed himself to trying to win the foot race to the puck.
Bottom line, no collision would have taken place if Miller stayed in his crease between the pipes. The moment a goaltender exits that crease, there is an inherent risk he undertakes that could result in him being part of a collision that could result in an injury. Just like the risk any player undertakes when he chases a loose puck.
In the end, a suspension to Lucic would have led the league down a slippery slope in the opposite direction in which every single collision involving a player with a goaltender would have been scrutinized and perhaps expected to result in a suspension. Shanahan was correct to assume the collision was unavoidable once both players committed to getting the puck first.
Shaune Vetter: I think the issue of goalies being hit while playing the puck has been a polarizing issue since people put on skates. Of course teams feel the need to protect their goalies, as they should, but you also can't have a player running around hitting other players and throwing the "But I'm a goalie" card out every time he gets touched.
If a player truly initiates contact with a defenseless goalie just stopping the puck, then there should be a call. That being said, if a goalie goes out of his way to make contact and interfere with the player while making a play on the puck, why is it the player's responsibility to avoid the goalie at all costs and give him a free-pass to make a play without trying to impede him since doing so could result in a penalty?
In Ryan Miller’s case, I think he tried to make a hit, took the worst of it, and now wants someone to teach the big bad man a lesson. When you look at the replay Miller clearly throws his elbow up at Lucic while Lucic is coming in hard. Could contact have been avoided by Lucic? Maybe, but I think if Miller doesn’t try to make it hit the answer is definitely, and I think that’s the reason that Lucic wasn’t suspended.
Goalies should be protected to a point. But protecting them doesn’t mean making them untouchable and allowing them to throw hits. I think the NHL will look at any goalie contact on a case-by-case basis and judge each one individually. In this case, despite what Ryan Miller and the Sabres have been selling to anyone who would listen, they made the right decision.
Adam French: I didn’t like the fact that Lucic didn’t get a suspension, he delivered a clear check, I don’t mind if he tries to strip the puck off him or if he tried at all to dodge him but he didn’t. Sour grapes or not right or wrong this isn’t a good precedent to make, goalies get tripped up when they are out of the net all the time and that is fine they go out there they have to know there can be some contact, but a clear check? No. I think he should have gotten 2 games just to show it isn’t alright to check a goalie. Other than that this topic has been discussed to death and the fact that Miller is out with a concussion only adds to the stigmata this play will get. I think Kerry Fraser said it best in his article where he pointed out that this play was under the strict interpretation of the NHL rulebook a penalty and could have been a 5 minute major.
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