IMO the whole education system is (frank)ed up... but you should be super-qualified to be a teacher(already, you do need 2 degrees, which is more than most jobs), and they should be equally compensated, to ensure you have the best of the brightest educating the future generation.
- Feeling Glucky?

They're very adequately compensated. I think that's blatantly obvious. There aren't many professions that are compensated better than they are. In fact, when you start to break it down to the weeks they actually work, the only groups that get compensated more, on average, are lawyers, doctors, engineers, etc.

I see, so they're not complaining about what they're getting paid. Just that it won't be more next year. And the year after. That's TOTALLY different.

So, I guess they're exempt from the wage freezes that 90% of the rest of society is under right now? Perfect.




just like the rest of the world.


And that's totally weird, because I know the minute I left school, and started in the financial industry, companies were lined up around the corner to pay me $80K a year. Obviously that's a totally realistic expectation for teachers too then.



And, as pointed out, she should have been getting that $80K for the past 10 years already, so that's just a travesty.


about what deal.... $80K a year? BUT THEY ARE COMPLAINING.


I'm not going to start trying to anticipate what group and their salaries may be up for negotiation next. Go ahead if you want to, but I'm not going to tie what a doctor does to what a teacher does.



Yep, let's totally tie completely different professions with completely different payscales to your argument as a way of trying to strengthen your argument.



I'm not even sure what you mean by that.
- prock

ignoring the sarcasm above the bolded, McGuinty himself said that those professions are next on his block... it's not speculation. I'm not just arguing pro-teacher, I'm arguing against McGuinty. Teachers are just the first ones to get screwed by him(and having your right to strike against what you feel is unfair IS being screwed)... he's got more people lined up.

They're very adequately compensated. I think that's blatantly obvious. There aren't many professions that are compensated better than they are. In fact, when you start to break it down to the weeks they actually work, the only groups that get compensated more, on average, are lawyers, doctors, engineers, etc.
- prock

and given the fact that they're the ones who give you lawyers, doctors, engineers, and everything else... don't you think it makes sense that they should be paid a lot?

And please, tell me how it's right for any government to take away the right to strike for non-essential workers?

and given the fact that they're the ones who give you lawyers, doctors, engineers, and everything else... don't you think it makes sense that they should be paid a lot?

And please, tell me how it's right for any government to take away the right to strike for non-essential workers?
- Feeling Glucky?

I agree with most of our points. Question: do you think teachers are an essential service?

I agree with most of our points. Question: do you think teachers are an essential service?
- dawgzhouse

Subsection 4(1) of the PSLRA defines an "essential service" as "a service, facility or activity of the Government of Canada that is or will be, at any time, necessary for the safety or security of the public or a segment of the public".

Not by that definition, no.

To be fair, the teachers in my family are french teachers, so they've gotta correct the work for either the whole school or half the school
- Feeling Glucky?

Ahhh I see.

and given the fact that they're the ones who give you lawyers, doctors, engineers, and everything else... don't you think it makes sense that they should be paid a lot?

And please, tell me how it's right for any government to take away the right to strike for non-essential workers?
- Feeling Glucky?

oh, teachers are the "ones that give us lawyers, doctors, engineers", are they?

I presume since we're giving them credit for delivering us doctors, engineers, and lawyers, we can also credit them for giving us the criminals and unemployed?

ignoring the sarcasm above the bolded, McGuinty himself said that those professions are next on his block... it's not speculation. I'm not just arguing pro-teacher, I'm arguing against McGuinty. Teachers are just the first ones to get screwed by him(and having your right to strike against what you feel is unfair IS being screwed)... he's got more people lined up.
- Feeling Glucky?

I can't stand McGuinty either. He's an idiot. But the thing is, what prompted it? Weren't the teachers demanding something like a 5+% pay raise, or something like that?

Besides, doctors and firefighters already legally can’t strike. So, “they’re next on the block”, I’m not sure makes much sense. Or, are you trying to advocate for hospitals and firefighters going on strike? Would you like the police to strike as well?

Is that just to keep their already ample salaries in line with inflation?

Ahhh I see.
- laughs2907

A bit of an absurd statement, don't you think?

Not by that definition, no.
- Feeling Glucky?

FYI: The PSLRA governs federal employees. The Crown Employees Collective Bargaining Act defines 'essential services' similarly but goes further.

s.30. In this Part,

“essential services” means services that are necessary to enable the employer to prevent,
(a) danger to life, health or safety,
(b) the destruction or serious deterioration of machinery, equipment or premises,
(c) serious environmental damage, or
(d) disruption of the administration of the courts or of legislative drafting; (“services essentiels”)

Ok fair enough, so you're recognizing the definition of "essential services" as defined by the law but not this law that prohibits teachers from striking? Selective, no?

(I support your position. I'm simply exploring your argument.)

FYI: The PSLRA governs federal employees. The Crown Employees Collective Bargaining Act defines 'essential services' similarly but goes further.

s.30. In this Part,

“essential services” means services that are necessary to enable the employer to prevent,
(a) danger to life, health or safety,
(b) the destruction or serious deterioration of machinery, equipment or premises,
(c) serious environmental damage, or
(d) disruption of the administration of the courts or of legislative drafting; (“services essentiels”)

Ok fair enough, so you're recognizing the definition of "essential services" as defined by the law but not this law that prohibits teachers from striking? Selective, no?

(I support your position. I'm simply exploring your argument.)
- dawgzhouse

I don't think you'll find too many people that actually agree it's the right thing to do to.

But I also don't think you'll find too many people outside the teaching profession that think they're in the right either, bargaining for the increases they are, when they're at the salaries they already are, and in the situation they are. They're paid VERY fairly, and the constant threat of strike, and the b!tching you get out of teachers is way out of hand. And has been for many, many, many years.

Shut up and recognize that you have it pretty good. Deservedly so, I get that, but you still have it pretty good. So shut up and do the job that you're paid quite well to do.

A bit of an absurd statement, don't you think?
- prock

I think my absurd statement radar is off... I think those who support the NHLPA and Fehr have wrecked it.

I can't stand McGuinty either. He's an idiot. But the thing is, what prompted it? Weren't the teachers demanding something like a 5+% pay raise, or something like that?

Is that just to keep their already ample salaries in line with inflation?
- prock

well, inflation is ~3%, and the rule to any negotiation is that you ask for more than you expect, so that they'll meet you in the middle.

FYI: The PSLRA governs federal employees. The Crown Employees Collective Bargaining Act defines 'essential services' similarly but goes further.

s.30. In this Part,

“essential services” means services that are necessary to enable the employer to prevent,
(a) danger to life, health or safety,
(b) the destruction or serious deterioration of machinery, equipment or premises,
(c) serious environmental damage, or
(d) disruption of the administration of the courts or of legislative drafting; (“services essentiels”)

Ok fair enough, so you're recognizing the definition of "essential services" as defined by the law but not this law that prohibits teachers from striking? Selective, no?

(I support your position. I'm simply exploring your argument.)
- dawgzhouse

In what you posted there, I still don't see where teachers fit in as an essential service.

I think my absurd statement radar is off... I think those who support the NHLPA and Fehr have wrecked it.
- laughs2907

The implication that a French teacher, who teaches the same number of classes as any other high school teacher, and therefore sees the same number of students go through, has more to grade/mark, strikes me as a little misguided. Or even at an earlier age, how a teacher who teaches 30 students x 7 classes x 1 subject, has more to grade/mark, than a teacher who teaches 30 students x 1 class x 7 subjects, has more to grade/mark.

How is somehow being a French teacher different?

well, inflation is ~3%, and the rule to any negotiation is that you ask for more than you expect, so that they'll meet you in the middle.
- Feeling Glucky?

How about, “the rest of the world isn’t out there getting raises, so you’re not either”, as a good middle ground?

Sounds good to me.


As upside, “you have no threat of getting downsized or fired, like the rest of the world faces”.

Thanks, have a nice day.

oh, teachers are the "ones that give us lawyers, doctors, engineers", are they?

I presume since we're giving them credit for delivering us doctors, engineers, and lawyers, we can also credit them for giving us the criminals and unemployed?
- prock

The credit for that goes to lack of proper education. Either teachers who aren't doing a good job(it's not like I'm arguing teachers are saints), or children who are growing up in an environment that doesn't put their education as a priority(be it family, or community).

The credit for that goes to lack of proper education. Either teachers who aren't doing a good job(it's not like I'm arguing teachers are saints), or children who are growing up in an environment that doesn't put their education as a priority(be it family, or community).
- Feeling Glucky?

If you’re going to credit teachers and families for lawyers, doctors, engineers, I’d say the same credit goes to the same group for the other end of the spectrum.

Which, by the way, is an excellent argument for a pay for performance type salary, which teachers unions would never agree to (and admittedly, would be near impossible to implement successfully). Similarly, a system that doesn’t give the kind of job security that is only afforded to the best of employees in the private sector. Also, something the unions would never agree to.

The credit for that goes to lack of proper education. Either teachers who aren't doing a good job(it's not like I'm arguing teachers are saints), or children who are growing up in an environment that doesn't put their education as a priority(be it family, or community).
- Feeling Glucky?

Doesn't that beg the question? If someone gets proper education, then they're great. If someone isn't great, then they didn't get proper education.

If not the criminals, surely teachers are responsible for the hopelessly mediocre?

Doesn't that beg the question? If someone gets proper education, then they're great. If someone isn't great, then they didn't get proper education.

If not the criminals, surely teachers are responsible for the hopelessly mediocre?
- Morris

Yup, thereby negating the argument that teachers are responsible for the doctors, lawyers, engineers, and thereby should be paid close to what they are.

For the record, I'm not going to comment on the teacher's situation in Ontario, as it is both removed from my province and from my profession. I'm just kind of stirring the pot.

For the record, I'm not going to comment on the teacher's situation in Ontario, as it is both removed from my province and from my profession. I'm just kind of stirring the pot.
- Morris

troll.

Yup, thereby negating the argument that teachers are responsible for the doctors, lawyers, engineers, and thereby should be paid close to what they are.
- prock

Teachers nurture what's there. Can't grow crops in a desert.

Teachers nurture what's there. .
- Feeling Glucky?

Sometimes they do. And sometimes they don't.

The implication that a French teacher, who teaches the same number of classes as any other high school teacher, and therefore sees the same number of students go through, has more to grade/mark, strikes me as a little misguided. Or even at an earlier age, how a teacher who teaches 30 students x 7 classes x 1 subject, has more to grade/mark, than a teacher who teaches 30 students x 1 class x 7 subjects, has more to grade/mark.

How is somehow being a French teacher different?
- prock

I assume they're not.