It was said best on Daily News Live Pence was never a guy who would or could carry the team he at best was a guy who could be a good role player in a good lineup.

He certainly is not a $15 million dollar a year player, it overall was a good baseball move.
- ob18

Exactly. This is a 15 million dollar a year player.

Not even arguing it's a good baseball deal, just that they got something of value to restock the system a bit.
- Jsaquella

The deal's that Amaro has made when trading quality major League players have been poor. The first time he traded Lee, and now the Pence deal. They got a decent Catching prospect. That's about it.

With Victorino being a Free Agent, I wouldn't expect a great return. But I'm highly annoyed at the Pence deal.

It was said best on Daily News Live Pence was never a guy who would or could carry the team he at best was a guy who could be a good role player in a good lineup.

He certainly is not a $15 million dollar a year player, it overall was a good baseball move.
- ob18

No he's not a guy that you would expect to carry a team. But he is a very good player. And he's worth 15M a year in my opinion. Think you can find a corner outfielder in Free Agency that can give you the same production, for less?

In my opinion it is a poor deal.

No he's not a guy that you would expect to carry a team. But he is a very good player. And he's worth 15M a year in my opinion. Think you can find a corner outfielder in Free Agency that can give you the same production, for less?

In my opinion it is a poor deal.
- MJL

The Victorino deal was decent. The Pence deal was an atrocity.

The Victorino deal was decent. The Pence deal was an atrocity.
- MBFlyerfan

I agree. They got a couple of decent young arms for a Free Agent to be in Victorino. The Pence deal was awful.

I agree. They got a couple of decent young arms for a Free Agent to be in Victorino. The Pence deal was awful.
- MJL

Ruben should legally change his name to Rube. Because that Pence deal confirms this is what he is.

Phillies sure are whooping some kiester tonight woot!

The deal's that Amaro has made when trading quality major League players have been poor. The first time he traded Lee, and now the Pence deal. They got a decent Catching prospect. That's about it.

With Victorino being a Free Agent, I wouldn't expect a great return. But I'm highly annoyed at the Pence deal.
- MJL

Not arguing. Amaro got jobbed in the Lee deal. And based on what he gave up for Pence last year, the deal is a bad one.

However, Pence isn't going to be worth what he'll command next year. He's a nice player, puts up good numbers and is a threat. He's one of the few guys that actually did close to what was expected, if not by fans, then by the team.

Let's not underestimate the desire/need to get under the tax threshold. Not paying the tax means they can use the money on players that can replace what Pence brought.

Not arguing. Amaro got jobbed in the Lee deal. And based on what he gave up for Pence last year, the deal is a bad one.

However, Pence isn't going to be worth what he'll command next year. He's a nice player, puts up good numbers and is a threat. He's one of the few guys that actually did close to what was expected, if not by fans, then by the team.

Let's not underestimate the desire/need to get under the tax threshold. Not paying the tax means they can use the money on players that can replace what Pence brought.
- Jsaquella

it is a letdown coming from 08 to now that is for sure. However I remember 86-05 minus 93, I can deal with a season like this every now and then if management will be committed to winning.

Not arguing. Amaro got jobbed in the Lee deal. And based on what he gave up for Pence last year, the deal is a bad one.

However, Pence isn't going to be worth what he'll command next year. He's a nice player, puts up good numbers and is a threat. He's one of the few guys that actually did close to what was expected, if not by fans, then by the team.

Let's not underestimate the desire/need to get under the tax threshold. Not paying the tax means they can use the money on players that can replace what Pence brought.
- Jsaquella

That's my whole point. Are you going to find a player that can replace what Pence brought for less in Free Agency? Doubtful. You were looking at around 14M next year for Pence. Which would of been a slight, and I'll emphasize slight overpayment for Pence. 12-13M would have been about what he's worth. But now they need at least 2 Outfielders, if not 3. A 3rd baseman, and a few bull pen arms. Find another way to get under the Tax this year. If that's the reason why they made that deal. I'm disgusted by that.

That's my whole point. Are you going to find a player that can replace what Pence brought for less in Free Agency? Doubtful. You were looking at around 14M next year for Pence. Which would of been a slight, and I'll emphasize slight overpayment for Pence. 12-13M would have been about what he's worth. But now they need at least 2 Outfielders, if not 3. A 3rd baseman, and a few bull pen arms. Find another way to get under the Tax this year. If that's the reason why they made that deal. I'm disgusted by that.
- MJL

I also think it's the start of what Amaro hopes will be a short term rebuild. I expect 2013 to be a rebuilding year, or at least a re-tooling year.

That's my whole point. Are you going to find a player that can replace what Pence brought for less in Free Agency? Doubtful. You were looking at around 14M next year for Pence. Which would of been a slight, and I'll emphasize slight overpayment for Pence. 12-13M would have been about what he's worth. But now they need at least 2 Outfielders, if not 3. A 3rd baseman, and a few bull pen arms. Find another way to get under the Tax this year. If that's the reason why they made that deal. I'm disgusted by that.
- MJL

Curious why you are so critical of the Phillies, who just won a Championship four years ago, but defend pretty much everything the Flyers do when they haven't won in nearly four decades.

it is a letdown coming from 08 to now that is for sure. However I remember 86-05 minus 93, I can deal with a season like this every now and then if management will be committed to winning.
- JoeRussomanno

They also traded Tuffy Gosewich to the Blue Jays for nothing. Jesus, not even some fungo bats or eye black!!!

I just think they're going to be rebuilding/retooling for a couple years.

They also traded Tuffy Gosewich to the Blue Jays for nothing. Jesus, not even some fungo bats or eye black!!!

I just think they're going to be rebuilding/retooling for a couple years.
- Jsaquella

yea I guess. I put up with two and a half decades of rebuilding I can persevere through a 2-3 years especially considering a pennant is in recent memory.

Curious why you are so critical of the Phillies, who just won a Championship four years ago, but defend pretty much everything the Flyers do when they haven't won in nearly four decades.
- PLindbergh31

The Flyers have nothing to do with this. So critical of the Phillies? Unlike being negative constantly, as your posts are. I'm being critical and negative of one move and one trade.

yea I guess. I put up with two and a half decades of rebuilding I can persevere through a 2-3 years especially considering a pennant is in recent memory.
- JoeRussomanno

If the Phillies are going to go through a 2-3 year rebuild, they should try and trade a whole lot more players that are currently on the team.

The Flyers have nothing to do with this. Unlike being negative constantly, as your posts are. I'm being critical and negative of one move and one trade.

- MJL

About the type of answer I expected.

yea I guess. I put up with two and a half decades of rebuilding I can persevere through a 2-3 years especially considering a pennant is in recent memory.
- JoeRussomanno

I have reservations that Amaro is the right guy to lead that rebuild. But, they need to start looking at the future. They have an aging infield. They've dealt away prospects for the last few years like they were growing on trees. They have to start planning for the future.

About the type of answer I expected.
- PLindbergh31

Good, because that's the right answer. There is a huge difference between being negative on one move or one occasion. Versus being negative on a daily basis when it comes to the team you root for.

If the Phillies are going to go through a 2-3 year rebuild, they should try and trade a whole lot more players that are currently on the team.
- MJL

But we don't know who was offered and what would have been given in exchange.

IMO I hope they get away from relying on the longball. Manufacture runs, bunt with no outs and runners in scoring position etc. I'm so (frank)ing sick of seeing man on 3rd then three outs later no runs scored.

But we don't know who was offered and what would have been given in exchange.

IMO I hope they get away from relying on the longball. Manufacture runs, bunt with no outs and runners in scoring position etc. I'm so (frank)ing sick of seeing man on 3rd then three outs later no runs scored.
- JoeRussomanno

That has been one of the biggest issues of this team. Hitting in RISP. And the bullpen. And then the failure of the starting pitching this year. Halladay getting hurt can't be helped. But I think I read that the Phillies are 11-22 in games that Halladay and Lee started.

Weird stat from Bob Vetrone

Bob Vetrone Jr. ‏@BoopStats

Shane Victorino recorded 666 singles as a Phillie.

That has been one of the biggest issues of this team. Hitting in RISP. And the bullpen. And then the failure of the starting pitching this year. Halladay getting hurt can't be helped. But I think I read that the Phillies are 11-22 in games that Halladay and Lee started.
- MJL

I just want a change of philosphy. I mean I just watched two or three years ending in Ryan Howard either looking at a strike over the middle of the plate or hitting a cupcake to the infield. I'm not blaming Howard I'm just saying if we're gonna rebuild then do it right and switch offensive philosphies too. Enough of this 1-0 losses already!!!! That is so aggravating.

Weird stat from Bob Vetrone

Bob Vetrone Jr. ‏@BoopStats

Shane Victorino recorded 666 singles as a Phillie.
- Jsaquella

Awesome!!!!!!!!!!

I just want a change of philosphy. I mean I just watched two or three years ending in Ryan Howard either looking at a strike over the middle of the plate or hitting a cupcake to the infield. I'm not blaming Howard I'm just saying if we're gonna rebuild then do it right and switch offensive philosphies too. Enough of this 1-0 losses already!!!! That is so aggravating.
- JoeRussomanno

A good place to start would be to get a true leadoff hitter and table setter in here.