Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Where Does Holmgren Rank Among Flyers' GMs?

Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Where Does Holmgren Rank Among Flyers' GMs?
- bmeltzer

2nd behind Allen...

Bill, I'm a big fan of Clarkie but you should have given him blame for the 2006-2007 mess. A poster once used the term "he quit on the team". I have to agree with the assessement. For a guy who never took a second off during a shift as a player, he seemed to give up on trying to fix the bad hand he was dealt that year.

I'll say second. Would love to see him win the cup and make the discussion more complex.

What a great way to start off my birthday. A blob from Bill

I think that by most measures Holmgren is fast proving to be one of the best GMs in the NHL. It will take a few years for his body of work to prove out. But, the deals from last summer have made the Flyers a serious contender for the next decade.

Clearly he knows he needs a #1 D. And, it is clear he is working on it. If he gets that done, his reputation will be entrenched.

Bill I'd say Homer is #2. He has had to manage in the salary cap era and if he wins a Cup or 2, let the debate begin about #1

What a great way to start off my birthday. A blob from Bill
- Giroux_Is_God

happy birthday, GiG.

I think Clarkes second tenure as Gm is one for a great debate. He made a lot of good moves early on then perhaps as many questionable or not so good moves down the road. For me I started souring on him when he went out and got Vanbiesbrouck instead of Joseph or Richter (in reality it was Joseph because imo Richter wasn't leaving NY). The whole big player dogma was clung to for too long. Trading Brind'amour for Primeau was the icing on the cake for me. I know Primeau is idolized by many fans but his accomplishments did not replace the better and more durable player.

Imo I already have Holmgren ahead of Clarke. Homer has a good body of work and a Finals appearance under his own belt. The moves he made last summer were so ingenious in that they allowed the team to rebuild on the fly and stay stocked with elite talent for years. This summer Holmgren hasn't made a move to make a move which I feel like Clarke would have done. No, the Flyers haven't added anyone notable other than Schenn, but perhaps shaving down the front-end talent and adding secondary players like Fedotenko and Gervais pay off, in that some other players like Vorachek, Read and Simmonds can blossom even further. The Defense is tougher than the lineup from mid-season and that toughness was something they seemed to lack. Furthermore they know going into this season not to rely on Pronger which might induce individual improvement from guys like Coburn, Mezaros Grossmann and Schenn.

happy birthday, GiG.
- Don'tForgetTocchet

+1

What a great way to start off my birthday. A blob from Bill
- Giroux_Is_God

Have a good one

i would have to say 2nd too for homer.

he is probably the most innovative gm in the game right now. he started the craze of trading for soon to be free agents before free agency and locking them up. (ie. timonen, hartnell) he also helped start the trend of front loading longer contracts with smaller salaries in the backend to create a better cap hit (ie. carter, richards, pronger, bryz) he also has the balls and genious to offer sheet an RFA, one of the best d men in the league in weber, and implementing a bonus structure that would cripple a small market team. the league is now trying to create fixes to the loopholes that homer and his staff have found.

plain and simple, while clarke was a great gm, he had no deterrent like a salary cap that homer has to deal with. homer has made some mistakes but who hasnt?

No matter what, i'm just thankful we've been lucky to have GM's who are as dedicated and committed to winning as they are. They are always trying to get better and they are never content. They continue to look at ways of improving by any means necessary

i would have to say 2nd too for homer.

he is probably the most innovative gm in the game right now. he started the craze of trading for soon to be free agents before free agency and locking them up. (ie. timonen, hartnell) he also helped start the trend of front loading longer contracts with smaller salaries in the backend to create a better cap hit (ie. carter, richards, pronger, bryz) he also has the balls and genious to offer sheet an RFA, one of the best d men in the league in weber, and implementing a bonus structure that would cripple a small market team. the league is now trying to create fixes to the loopholes that homer and his staff have found.

plain and simple, while clarke was a great gm, he had no deterrent like a salary cap that homer has to deal with. homer has made some mistakes but who hasnt?

No matter what, i'm just thankful we've been lucky to have GM's who are as dedicated and committed to winning as they are. They are always trying to get better and they are never content. They continue to look at ways of improving by any means necessary
- ecp500

I'll just add that Holmgren has people that work for him and handle the Cap such as Barry Hanrahan. So I don't know if Holmgren himself came up with the contract ideas such as front loading. Secondly, I personally don't like the idea of giving up draft picks for the rights to impending UFA's. I think that's bad business. And thirdly, even though I'm sure that it wasn't Holmgren's of the Flyers actual intent. Contributing to crippling a small market team would make him a bad GM, not a good one.

Paul Holmgren's job, I bet his boss would say, is to win a Stanley Cup. If small market teams are crippled along the way, it's a league issue. Change the rules. Negative impacts on other teams shouldn't be a consideration, unless his job description says "do your part to insure that Nashville Predatos remain a going hockey concern".

It's a complete copout, but after Keith Allen Homer and Clark take two are on about a even plane with the edge going to Clarke two because he was smart enough to bring in Homer to be head of pro scouting and as his Asst GM to oversee the minor league and player development. Think of some of those "who?" draft picks of the Clarke two era, they were Homer's as much as anything. On the other hand, since Homer has been GM he seems to be a bit quick to deal picks or risk them.

None by Allen has assembled a cup winner. Both Homer and Clarke take two failed to recognize the problems with/in goal for years. That alone keeps both of them from being in the same sentence as Allen...win some cups and we can talk....

happy birthday, GiG.
- Don'tForgetTocchet

What you said. I gave up my season tickets after a Cujo led Leaf team knocked out Johnny Shortside.

A few days ago we were listing our top 10 Favorite list. I also inclued my Top 10 hated:

Recchi
Recchi
Recchi
Beezer
Burke
Recchi
Esche
Beezer
Recchi
Burke
Recchi.....so you understand where I stand

To this day, I am convinced the team of that era would have won a cup with Cujo

Edit: @ Joeruss

Thanks for the wishes guys

Thanks for the wishes guys
- Giroux_Is_God

Now go out & don't spend it here

Paul Holmgren's job, I bet his boss would say, is to win a Stanley Cup. If small market teams are crippled along the way, it's a league issue. Change the rules. Negative impacts on other teams shouldn't be a consideration, unless his job description says "do your part to insure that Nashville Predatos remain a going hockey concern".
- 2731color

Absolutely that is his main concern. But it's not just a League issue. It's an issue for every team. Do you want the Salary Cap to go up or down, so your team can spend more money on players? Do you want your team to continue to sign top free agents by offering them large amounts of up front money? Then you want Nashville and every other team to do well financially. And let's not pretend that the Weber OS was good for the League. It isn't. And is going to contribute to a possible lockout, which is good for who exactly? The well fare of every team effects each other, the League, and the fans.

What you said. I gave up my season tickets after a Cujo led Leaf team knocked out Johnny Shortside.

A few days ago we were listing our top 10 Favorite list. I also inclued my Top 10 hated:

Recchi
Recchi
Recchi
Beezer
Burke
Recchi
Esche
Beezer
Recchi
Burke
Recchi.....so you understand where I stand

To this day, I am convinced the team of that era would have won a cup with Cujo

Edit: @ Joeruss
- KINGKENZO

go on....

Andy Reid's oldest son was found dead this morning. Our prayers go out to him and his family. I know he has dealt with family issues with two of his sons. I know someone commented earlier about Andy not being at camp.

What you said. I gave up my season tickets after a Cujo led Leaf team knocked out Johnny Shortside.

A few days ago we were listing our top 10 Favorite list. I also inclued my Top 10 hated:

Recchi
Recchi
Recchi
Beezer
Burke
Recchi
Esche
Beezer
Recchi
Burke
Recchi.....so you understand where I stand

To this day, I am convinced the team of that era would have won a cup with Cujo

Edit: @ Joeruss
- KINGKENZO

Cujo sure backstopped all his teams to cups, and whats with the recchi hate? 3 cups, 500+ goals, Almost 1000 assists, holds flyers single season scoring record...

Cujo sure backstopped all his teams to cups, and whats with the recchi hate? 3 cups, 500+ goals, Almost 1000 assists, holds flyers single season scoring record...
- twotoekenn

Sorry to offend you, Beezer

He's a traitorous dog

and for the record, the series vs the Leafs mentioned earlier, Recchi didnt do Richard despite numberous scoring chances. Cujo shut him down

Sorry to offend you, Beezer

He's a traitorous dog

and for the record, the series vs the Leafs mentioned earlier, Recchi didnt do Richard despite numberous scoring chances. Cujo shut him down
- KINGKENZO

Could care less about beezer vs cujo debate, but don't understand your problem with recchi. Are you calling him a traitorous dog? Where does that come from?

Could care less about beezer vs cujo debate, but don't understand your problem with recchi. Are you calling him a traitorous dog? Where does that come from?
- twotoekenn

Too late to get detailed but has to do with the Bill Barber situation.