On the surface, you would think so.

That said, a lot of this has been about public face-saving for both sides. And I don't know if bringing the mediator in isn't just one side or both being able to say: "we tried everything."

I don't have a good feeling about this.

Gary Bettman is not a shrewd marketer, and I believe a pro sport commissioner needs to be; his expansion plan in the 90s was a mistake and a failure. Now, we, the fans, are paying for it again (because we did in the last lockout/lost season) as the owners try to prop up his ill-conceived expansions.

Donald Fehr basically ruined baseball for me and I dare say millions of others in the early 90s. He only knows how to scorch the earth on behalf of exorbitant salaries. Who can afford to take their family to a baseball game anymore and sit anywhere but the nosebleeds? Not many people.

Fehr does not care about baseball fans, nor does he care about hockey fans. Bettman might just a whit more, because of the nature of his job.

Both of these guys are toxic.
- John Jaeckel

Sadly I must give.....

I don't disagree, but I can also make the argument that the tone was set when the PA chose not to ratify re-alignment—which was in everyone's best interests—including the players.
I'm not sure, after that, if I were the owners/Bettman, if I wouldn't have decided to play hardball from Jump Street on the CBA. Fehr fired the first shot.
- John Jaeckel

Very good point....that one slipped through the cracks. NHLPA sticking its ba!!s out there was certainly a big mistake.

I don't disagree, but I can also make the argument that the tone was set when the PA chose not to ratify re-alignment—which was in everyone's best interests—including the players.

I'm not sure, after that, if I were the owners/Bettman, if I wouldn't have decided to play hardball from Jump Street on the CBA. Fehr fired the first shot.
- John Jaeckel

And, finally, how about Bettman, knowing what was coming, telling everyone publicly during the summer that the new cap was going to be $73MM, and that it was business as usual for signing free agents.

Now, maybe he legally couldn't do anything else while a cap was in effect, but publicly telling owners / players to go ahead and sign contracts as usual - knowing he was going to be looking for a claw-back - is at least somewhat unethical.

Of course, Fehr, agents, and players should have known the same thing.

Who decided to pay Soriano $19MM last year? Wasn't Fehr.
Who decided to pay Vernon Wells (a .218 hitter last year) $24MM? Wasn't Fehr.
Who decided to pay ARod $30MM - and then not play him in the play-offs? Wasn't Fehr.

Baseball salaries got so high because Marvin Miller (much to his surprise - didn't think the owners would go for it) got salary arbitration, with the arbitrator only able to award based on club offer vs. player offer, many years before Fehr.

Baseball has had no work stoppages since 1994 - can't say that about hockey.

And - if players' salaries were cut in half, ticket prices wouldn't go down very much (if at all): supply and demand. Might as well blame Harry Carey for the high price of Cubs' tickets (second highest (?) in baseball).

I don't like Fehr: I don't think he's done a good job in getting a CBA this year, and is not doing right by his constituents. But can't blame him for everything.
- StLBravesFan

Seems like my post spreads blame equally (in hockey). I repeat what I have said about baseball. Owners will be owners. Baseball is the only uncapped major pro sport (thank you, Donald Fehr). John McDonough could not have paid the Cuban Strikeout King $118 million had there been one and the cost of taking a family of four to a game would not be approaching $200 (or more).

I'll submit it is in part because of the cost of going to games and the salaries that baseball has lost its luster since the last work stoppage. I know this: a lot of people (like me) really lost all their passion for baseball at that particular moment. Fehr has blood all over his hands.

And, finally, how about Bettman, knowing what was coming, telling everyone publicly during the summer that the new cap was going to be $73MM, and that it was business as usual for signing free agents.

Now, maybe he legally couldn't do anything else while a cap was in effect, but publicly telling owners / players to go ahead and sign contracts as usual - knowing he was going to be looking for a claw-back - is at least somewhat unethical.

Of course, Fehr, agents, and players should have known the same thing.
- StLBravesFan

Any player, agent or owner who took that at face value is an idiot.

Agreed. Doubt he would have said anything if it was Karl Alzner or Andrew Ladd who had spoken out.
- RickJ

Rick,

I am just offering a rhetorical (and highly plausible) perspective. I don't know what Brouwer's motivations are.

You seem to imply an anti-Euro bias in what you state above. Isn't it possible that Brouwer is just really strongly pro-union—and it has nothing to do with who said it, but rather, as he says, what was said?

He's a Wirtz... Said that a while ago and other people here have eluded to it.

My opinion is that unlike his old man, he will pay his players, pay them well and not alienate the ones he doesn't have to. However, I highly doubt he would be OK with giving money to a team in a market that shouldn't have a hockey team with a deal that kind of hamstrings his deep pockets in terms of being able to put the best team on the ice.

I think this is a pretty good analysis: http://www.hockeybuzz.com...s-Sunday-Results/45/47672
- fattybeef

Which to me seems like he would join Ed Snider in the cabal of owners who don't give a rat's a$ about the PHX, Nashville and Florida franchises.

Meh. Still the "have" vs the "have not as much" on both sides of the table. And they could probably have a square table with one of them on each side.

IMO the absolutely horrific expansion policy with no thought to reining in costs for teams that would struggle for more than 5 years was very unintelligent by the NHL. Basing salary off overall revenue is great for big market teams (Chicago, Boston, ect) but was always going to cause an issue with teams that cant charge holotta money to get in. The whole cap floor thing was a terrible idea as well.

No one is going to win in this situation. No one really can win. Unless there are meaningful changes to control salaries OR meaningful contraction / relocation then this nonsense is going to happen every 5-10 years as there just isn't the big TV and endorsement money to keep the flounders afloat like other leagues while still appeasing the big fishes.

Which to me seems like he would join Ed Snider in the cabal of owners who don't give a rat's a$ about the PHX, Nashville and Florida franchises.
- John Jaeckel

Yes agree 100% with that statement.

And, finally, how about Bettman, knowing what was coming, telling everyone publicly during the summer that the new cap was going to be $73MM, and that it was business as usual for signing free agents.

Now, maybe he legally couldn't do anything else while a cap was in effect, but publicly telling owners / players to go ahead and sign contracts as usual - knowing he was going to be looking for a claw-back - is at least somewhat unethical.

Of course, Fehr, agents, and players should have known the same thing.
- StLBravesFan

Much of what you say makes a lot of sense from a pragmatic "let's get things done" point of view.

Unfortunately in reality things are not so...

Half the teams probably had their best Oct-Nov from a P/L standpoint by not playing.

I agree with John, anyone who took Bettman at his word was a fool.

Anyone who took David Poile at his word when just around the playoffs he in effect said salaries have to be contained....Is also foolish.

This is not the law or Business 101....It's the NHL which is still evolving from 6 guys sitting in the Sonja Henie Room at the old Stadium dictating the course of business for every player in the entire league as they sipped Scotch and smoked Cuban cigars.

This is a spoiled mess and was from the beginning....

The deck was stacked against Fehr and he needed to find a better mouse trap to make things work and so far he has been reacting for the most part and not effective.

You and everyone here should understand what I finally have wrapped my head around...

The majority of owners have been and still are prepared to miss an entire season to prove their point. They must firmly believe fans won't hold a grudge and they will flock back as was the case before.

We will find out within the next 3 weeks or so if the players feel the same.

On Twitter@AlCimaglia

Trading Brouwer in order to avoid having to pay him $2M+ per year and then turning around and extending Frolik at the $2m+ per.
- John Jaeckel

When you're talking the likes of Frolik and Brouwer you can never imply such a massive error to begin with, right? Brouwer now will make 3.67mil starting in '13/14 - that's pretty crazy IMHO. That doesn't dismiss that Frolik has been a massive let down, outside of a couple of nice playoff performances. And anyway, the silver lining is Danault. Their are likely as many opinions on that subject as there are Blackhawk fans and I couldn't really say anyone is wrong... simply a matter of taste.

When you're talking the likes of Frolik and Brouwer you can never imply such a massive error to begin with, right? Brouwer now will make 3.67mil starting in '13/14 - that's pretty crazy IMHO. That doesn't dismiss that Frolik has been a massive let down, outside of a couple of nice playoff performances. And anyway, the silver lining is Danault. Their are likely as many opinions on that subject as there are Blackhawk fans and I couldn't really say anyone is wrong... simply a matter of taste.
- nathanjf

The issue with the Brouwer trade, and there is no debate here...
Bowman did not replace his skill set and the team suffered becasue of it.

Hockey 101 says Frolik, Brunette and anyone else brought in didn't have the same size and skill set as Brouwer.

The issue with the Brouwer trade, and there is no debate here...
Bowman did not replace his skill set and the team suffered becasue of it.

Hockey 101 says Frolik, Brunette and anyone else brought in didn't have the same size and skill set as Brouwer.
- Al

I don't think Stan was looking at Frolik and Brunette to replace the size and skill of Brouwer. The Blackhawks were looking for Bickell to be a more cost effective version of Brouwer. Obviously that was a poor decision, but if you look at their stats during the 10/11 regular season they were almost identical

Bickell - 78 GP, 17G, 20A, 37PTS, +6, Hits 178
Brouwer - 79 GP, 17G, 19A, 36PTS, -2, Hits 261

I think the playoffs that year helped solidify the decision:

Bickell - 5 GP, 2G, 2A, 4PTS, +4, Hits 22
Brouwer - 7 GP, 0G, 0A, 0PTS, +2, Hits 23

I'm not trying to defend the move, but if Bickell had stepped up and consistently played physically and with skill and Stan landed Danault it would have been a win/win. But Bickell soiled the sheets and there was nobody else to pick-up the slack.

Marvin Miller - dead at 95.

For better or worse, changed baseball - and all pro sports - forever - should be in the HOF.

Red Barber: “…along with Babe Ruth and Jackie Robinson, is one of the two or three most important men in baseball history".

Marvin Miller - dead at 95.

For better or worse, changed baseball - and all pro sports - forever - should be in the HOF.

Red Barber: “…along with Babe Ruth and Jackie Robinson, is one of the two or three most important men in baseball history".
- StLBravesFan

Yes he did....

Whoa and wow...how about that timing. As his cheif mentor (Fehr) is getting clocked by the NHL ownership.

I don't think Stan was looking at Frolik and Brunette to replace the size and skill of Brouwer. The Blackhawks were looking for Bickell to be a more cost effective version of Brouwer. Obviously that was a poor decision, but if you look at their stats during the 10/11 regular season they were almost identical

Bickell - 78 GP, 17G, 20A, 37PTS, +6, Hits 178
Brouwer - 79 GP, 17G, 19A, 36PTS, -2, Hits 261

I think the playoffs that year helped solidify the decision:

Bickell - 5 GP, 2G, 2A, 4PTS, +4, Hits 22
Brouwer - 7 GP, 0G, 0A, 0PTS, +2, Hits 23

I'm not trying to defend the move, but if Bickell had stepped up and consistently played physically and with skill and Stan landed Danault it would have been a win/win. But Bickell soiled the sheets and there was nobody else to pick-up the slack.
- DarthKane

Brouwer was a proven scorer in his early days and in the AHL..50 + in the WHL and 35 and 41 goals in the AHL.

Bickel scored 31 goals when he was 15-16 and never scored over 20 goals in the AHL.

Not to mention Bickell was probably one of the biggest players all through his younger days and never showed a true scoring touch...

Poor hockey logic by Bowman asthe players are not really comparable.

Most of the time you get what you pay for....

I don't think Stan was looking at Frolik and Brunette to replace the size and skill of Brouwer. The Blackhawks were looking for Bickell to be a more cost effective version of Brouwer. Obviously that was a poor decision, but if you look at their stats during the 10/11 regular season they were almost identical

Bickell - 78 GP, 17G, 20A, 37PTS, +6, Hits 178
Brouwer - 79 GP, 17G, 19A, 36PTS, -2, Hits 261

I think the playoffs that year helped solidify the decision:

Bickell - 5 GP, 2G, 2A, 4PTS, +4, Hits 22
Brouwer - 7 GP, 0G, 0A, 0PTS, +2, Hits 23
I'm not trying to defend the move, but if Bickell had stepped up and consistently played physically and with skill and Stan landed Danault it would have been a win/win. But Bickell soiled the sheets and there was nobody else to pick-up the slack.
- DarthKane

Brouwer was injured in Montreal a couple of games before the season ended. He played hurt during that playoff series. He was moved and not replaced. Q didnt like him and Bowman didn't want to pay out the money on a new contract and had no intention of resigning him. Instead, we, the paying spectators, got revved up in the hope that Rusty Olescz or Kyle Neach or Bryan Bickell or Jeremy Morin or Jiimy Hayes or Dan Carcillo would take his place.

Brouwer may not have been the best talent on the Hawks 2010 team, but he is better than anything they tried to replace him with, both on the ice and in the dressing room.

Rick,

I am just offering a rhetorical (and highly plausible) perspective. I don't know what Brouwer's motivations are.

You seem to imply an anti-Euro bias in what you state above. Isn't it possible that Brouwer is just really strongly pro-union—and it has nothing to do with who said it, but rather, as he says, what was said?
- John Jaeckel

JJ. Brouwer was and is one of my favourite players in the league. He strikes me as being an all round good guy. I just think he would have been better not saying anything for media consumption. You know - don't air your dirty laundry in public

Anything yet.?

On the surface, you would think so.

That said, a lot of this has been about public face-saving for both sides. And I don't know if bringing the mediator in isn't just one side or both being able to say: "we tried everything."

I don't have a good feeling about this.

Gary Bettman is not a shrewd marketer, and I believe a pro sport commissioner needs to be; his expansion plan in the 90s was a mistake and a failure. Now, we, the fans, are paying for it again (because we did in the last lockout/lost season) as the owners try to prop up his ill-conceived expansions.

Donald Fehr basically ruined baseball for me and I dare say millions of others in the early 90s. He only knows how to scorch the earth on behalf of exorbitant salaries. Who can afford to take their family to a baseball game anymore and sit anywhere but the nosebleeds? Not many people.

Fehr does not care about baseball fans, nor does he care about hockey fans. Bettman might just a whit more, because of the nature of his job.

Both of these guys are toxic.
- John Jaeckel

THIS...UPPER CASE CAPS LOCKED...i've been of the belief all along that this IS NOT ABOUT $$$, the players, the fans or anything else. This is about Butthead and Daly and the owners NOT WANTING to be another SCALP on Fehr's belt. It's a COCKFIGHT with massive egos not wanting to lose or give in. Like JJ's said...TOXIC.

THIS...UPPER CASE CAPS LOCKED...i've been of the belief all along that this IS NOT ABOUT $$$, the players, the fans or anything else. This is about Butthead and Daly and the owners NOT WANTING to be another SCALP on Fehr's belt. It's a COCKFIGHT with massive egos not wanting to lose or give in. Like JJ's said...TOXIC.
- philco28

That a boy Philco.... How the phuuuuuuckkkk are you!!

These piles of NHL toxic waste have already pssssed away almost $800 mil in lost revenue, while pilling up incredible ill will with each other and their customers.

And they have the hubris to think the $$$ will just come flying back into there pockets when this is all done.

The fact it has been going on this long with mind boggling lack of urgency is pathetic but not surprising. When the NHPLA said to the owners take your realignment and stick it....well...what do you know Bettman and the owners stuck it right back at'em.

I am not interested in some *asterick* marred BS season. Cancel it...decertify...and finish walking the plank!!!

That a boy Philco.... How the phuuuuuuckkkk are you!!

These piles of NHL toxic waste have already pssssed away almost $800 mil in lost revenue, while pilling up incredible ill will with each other and their customers.

And they have the hubris to think the $$$ will just come flying back into there pockets when this is all done.

The fact it has been going on this long with mind boggling lack of urgency is pathetic but not surprising. When the NHPLA said to the owners take your realignment and stick it....well...what do you know Bettman and the owners stuck it right back at'em.

I am not interested in some *asterick* marred BS season. Cancel it...decertify...and finish walking the plank!!!
- bogiedoc

Bogie.....


agree strongly...they won't see a DIME of my money for tix, merchandise or anything else for a LONG TIME....hope i can hold myself to that pledge...but this standoff is obviously B U L L S H * T E