Except that the team was trying to play a tighter style of hockey with Toews out. If I recall correctly there was a long stretch when Toews was out where the team seemed more capable than they had all year at playing total team defense. I can't see how Pirri would have fit into that. I wonder if the Hawks were floundering in 11th place if Pirri would have played.

Just to be clear, since words are often taken out of context here... Not backing Pirri... just spit balling.
- nathanjf

You are correct in some ways but as I pointed out in an article after the season...

The last 20 games the Hawks averaged 2 goals per game.

Yes, they did tighten up defensively but as a result they did not score as much.

They were not built to win 2-1 Coyote/Rangers style of games.

So they were caught in between....Playing sound defense is a must but this team as was constructed needed to average more than 2 goals per game.

On Twitter@AlCimaglia

Meh. Bettman is just the face of 28 other people.

Sure he is paid to negotiate but realistically he reports to the other 28 owners and they tell him what to say/do.

If anything his job probably sucks as he has to manage the ego's of people like the Jacobs (Delaware north.. Boston) and Wirtz and their irritation at having to give away money to the lesser teams. Plus dealing with owners who want handouts. Though being a millionaire babysitter I'm sure has its perks.

Boston, Buffalo, Chicago, Detroit, Toronto, Montreal, Philly, Pittsburgh, San Jose, Vancouver and Washington would spend ridiculous amounts of money without thinking twice.

Part of the problem is teams like Dallas or Phoenix don't want to spend the scratch and probably cant sustain a payroll of that size every year. To a certain extent they probably expect to make money just for being in the league and if they can't get it at the door then obviously it needs to be subsidized because things aren't "fair" and they are "disadvantaged" and blah blah blah... Then don't own a team? Don't expand to places that can't be sold out? Don't be surprised when teams that have money manipulate the accounting to pay the best players a cap friendly number? Half of this nonsense is so silly it is borderline hilarious. A real life lesson in market manipulation and the free lunch myth.

To think that it is just the players vs the owners is preposterous. I promise you there are at least 8 teams that could care less about a cap or player payment restrictions because they want people in the door (and fans will pay), they have a rabid base that buys jerseys and merch and enough people will watch it regionally to make it worth their while.

If the lower revenue teams can't get money from the owners that are by circumstance in better locations or run their business more effectively or all the above... then they will expect that money to come from the players as they cannot stand on their own two feet otherwise when spending gets out of control. Again, free lunch, easy money, over spending, kind of neat when micro matches macro.

What would be neat is if there was a balanced books rule where salaries could not exceed "hockey related revenue" wouldn't that be a fun one. It would limit spending to what everyone could afford and probably provide a more even playing field to compete as everyone has to adhere to the same standards and subsidizing through other corporations would not be as easy.

That way salaries are limited, everyone has the same rules in terms of what they can pay and it should be sustainable. Everyone makes money and gets paid appropriately. OR they could subsidize it further, make more ambiguous rules that owners of the better off organizations will circumvent and end up in this same mess 5-10 years down the line.
- fattybeef[/quote

You can add Los Angeles, Edmonton, NYR, Winnipeg and Calgary to your list above to make it a nice fiscally healthy 16 team league. No salary cap, best 350 players in the world.

And let the rest of the teams join the KHL or a new Mexican league. I certainly wouldn't miss any of those wannabees.

I'm sorry but when actual LEGIT beat guys, who don't hide behind aliases and what not, come out and say pessimisitc things, excuse me for laughing out loud reading Eklund's latest pile of crap.

Tomorrow is huge. If the players take this lightly, give a half @ss proposal, this season will be lost. From there, I don't know how this sport recovers. There will always be the niche fan who will attend, but watch the franchises in non hockey market die off....

So tired of the mouth pieces on both sides in the media. Really getting old. Get a deal done. Enough of staring down the barrell of the gun and refusing to get out of the way. It's an ego stand off, and I'm sorry but no Hawk can outlast wirtz in a finacial waiting game.

IF this season does get cancelled, I don't see how I can justify spending money on season tickets. 2004-05...I got it. Salary cap was needed. Now? It's just blatant stupidity. I'd also love to see how all these supposed waiting list people would react if they were called tomorrow to take on tickets. That after market will be gone, and eating a $65 ticket for Wednesday night in February to see Columbus in this economy isn't a sure thing....especially with a very FLAWED roster.

Hoping for the best, but so far...neither side has given anyone any sign of rational thinking.

I'm sorry but when actual LEGIT beat guys, who don't hide behind aliases and what not, come out and say pessimisitc things, excuse me for laughing out loud reading Eklund's latest pile of crap.

Tomorrow is huge. If the players take this lightly, give a half @ss proposal, this season will be lost. From there, I don't know how this sport recovers. There will always be the niche fan who will attend, but watch the franchises in non hockey market die off....

So tired of the mouth pieces on both sides in the media. Really getting old. Get a deal done. Enough of staring down the barrell of the gun and refusing to get out of the way. It's an ego stand off, and I'm sorry but no Hawk can outlast wirtz in a finacial waiting game.

IF this season does get cancelled, I don't see how I can justify spending money on season tickets. 2004-05...I got it. Salary cap was needed. Now? It's just blatant stupidity. I'd also love to see how all these supposed waiting list people would react if they were called tomorrow to take on tickets. That after market will be gone, and eating a $65 ticket for Wednesday night in February to see Columbus in this economy isn't a sure thing....especially with a very FLAWED roster.

Hoping for the best, but so far...neither side has given anyone any sign of rational thinking.
- SteveRain

At the end of every week do you feel like you are missing something without NHL hockey? I don't and if you don't and other hardcore fans don't, then apathy is upon us.

Both sides need a large attitude adjustment that hits their wallets real hard for quite awhile. The real love of the game exists at levels well below the NHL level. Nice to see Kraft pull their NHL/NHLPA sponsorship for the year.

By now the Organization should know if Pirri will fit in...

As far as trading Pirri...He had an All Star season and last summer would have been a good time to deal him.

The longer players we think are bonafide prospects stay in Rockford the more doubts enter the mind of potential suitors...

Not to mention the many scouts that are paid to seperate the pretenders from legit NHL players have more time to scrutinize.

On Twitter@AlCimaglia
- Al

He was mentioned (I think offered) by the Hawks in many trade discussions last year, I hear.

I'm sorry but when actual LEGIT beat guys, who don't hide behind aliases and what not, come out and say pessimisitc things, excuse me for laughing out loud reading Eklund's latest pile of crap.

Tomorrow is huge. If the players take this lightly, give a half @ss proposal, this season will be lost. From there, I don't know how this sport recovers. There will always be the niche fan who will attend, but watch the franchises in non hockey market die off....

So tired of the mouth pieces on both sides in the media. Really getting old. Get a deal done. Enough of staring down the barrell of the gun and refusing to get out of the way. It's an ego stand off, and I'm sorry but no Hawk can outlast wirtz in a finacial waiting game.

IF this season does get cancelled, I don't see how I can justify spending money on season tickets. 2004-05...I got it. Salary cap was needed. Now? It's just blatant stupidity. I'd also love to see how all these supposed waiting list people would react if they were called tomorrow to take on tickets. That after market will be gone, and eating a $65 ticket for Wednesday night in February to see Columbus in this economy isn't a sure thing....especially with a very FLAWED roster.

Hoping for the best, but so far...neither side has given anyone any sign of rational thinking.
- SteveRain

Players and former player GMs getting involved on both sides is a very positive thing.

And also a sign that this thing could go south (lost season) in a hurry. If THESE guys can't get something worked out, it is over.

From a negotiation standpoint Bettman has put the ball in the player's court...

In essence this means they are negotiating with themselves by presenting a "new" offer.


Where I went to school, negotiating with yourself almost always leads to an unfavorable end.

At the end of every week do you feel like you are missing something without NHL hockey? I don't and if you don't and other hardcore fans don't, then apathy is upon us.

Both sides need a large attitude adjustment that hits their wallets real hard for quite awhile. The real love of the game exists at levels well below the NHL level. Nice to see Kraft pull their NHL/NHLPA sponsorship for the year.
- RickJ

Bingo...I love hockey, but I have the NFL and NCAA to fall back on. After the superbowl is where I'll miss hockey the most, but at that point....I'll be used to it.

My brother and I had this same conversation last week. The whole debacle of this is each side using puppets to pound the social media network. Lost a lot of respect for a certain Hockey news writer who seems to be on the NHLPA payroll.

IF people don't think the days of 12-16K at most NHL arenas are upon them if this thing continues to drag out, think again. With each day the NHL/NHLPA play of who can spin it towards their favor, more casual fans head elsewhere, and those people...sporting their Buff T-shirt jerseys, standing up to go take a leak during the play, or the guys who help McDonough cash in on his "One goal" propaganda.

For those of us in Chicago....the Hawks are getting ZERO press and are a MAJOR after thought. Don't be shocked if McDonough goes running to the NFL.

At the end of every week do you feel like you are missing something without NHL hockey? I don't and if you don't and other hardcore fans don't, then apathy is upon us.

Both sides need a large attitude adjustment that hits their wallets real hard for quite awhile. The real love of the game exists at levels well below the NHL level. Nice to see Kraft pull their NHL/NHLPA sponsorship for the year.
- RickJ

Both sides need a large attitude adjustment that hits their wallets real hard for quite awhile. The real love of the game exists at levels well below the NHL level. Nice to see Kraft pull their NHL/NHLPA sponsorship for the year.

So - they do a new CBA at some point, and hockey starts again - December 15, January 15, October next fall - what do we fans do?

We could boycott them, not watch, not buy tickets, not buy merchandise.

Who does that hurt? Yeah, the owners, the players - but more, it hurts t fans, like us.

We on Hockeybuzz (and other boards) obviously love hockey - love to play (those that do), love to watch, love to discuss and argue about. Otherwise we wouldn't be checking in here every (almost?) day - all of us - even Bogie.

We'll be back the day they settle; we'll watch all the games; we'll buy the tickets; we'll spend the time, the money, the emotional ups and downs - because if we don't, who's going to be hurt?

Us.

Who here can honestly say otherwise?

You can add Los Angeles, Edmonton, NYR, Winnipeg and Calgary to your list above to make it a nice fiscally healthy 16 team league. No salary cap, best 350 players in the world.

And let the rest of the teams join the KHL or a new Mexican league. I certainly wouldn't miss any of those wannabees.
- RickJ

That would be a sick league.

Imagine how entertaining every single game would be, how out of their minds the fan bases would get during the draft and playoffs or down the wire, how intense the rivalries would get... Especially if hockey related revenue was the ONLY money you could spend on personal...

The seasons would be shorter or they could play 80 games just the same teams so many more times that players would be at each others throats by the end of the year which would again make it that much more entertaining and fantastic. And since the playoffs aren't a 2 month grind the hangover excuse goes right out the window.

The nonsense 2 point for a win and 1 point for overtime nonsense would go bye bye because the competition would be so intense that parity through that gimmick would be totally and completely unnecessary.

It would be glorious. Instead we're going to be stuck with a wishy washy over diluted talent pool that will go to war with the owners or the other way around in a hand full of years anyways.

Pretty sure we just solved the NHL crisis and this has been the most exciting moment of the lockout.

Players and former player GMs getting involved on both sides is a very positive thing.

And also a sign that this thing could go south (lost season) in a hurry. If THESE guys can't get something worked out, it is over.
- John Jaeckel

Tomorrow is D day. NO spin by either side. Either they get traction and get this working, or it will take a Tiny Tim christmas miracle to save this season.

Both sides seem to be beyond frustrated based on the quotes.

So - they do a new CBA at some point, and hockey starts again - December 15, January 15, October next fall - what do we fans do?

We could boycott them, not watch, not buy tickets, not buy merchandise.

Who does that hurt? Yeah, the owners, the players - but more, it hurts t fans, like us.

We on Hockeybuzz (and other boards) obviously love hockey - love to play (those that do), love to watch, love to discuss and argue about. Otherwise we wouldn't be checking in here every (almost?) day - all of us - even Bogie.

We'll be back the day they settle; we'll watch all the games; we'll buy the tickets; we'll spend the time, the money, the emotional ups and downs - because if we don't, who's going to be hurt?

Us.

Who here can honestly say otherwise?
- StLBravesFan

I can...Season tickets, parking, concessions all add up. TV ratings=better sponsorships. The casual fan stops showing up, stops watching....advertisers will take their dollars elsewhere. That's what you will get.

Watching on TV from a far will send a message. I'm very curious to see if all the people on the waiting list, presented with season tickets TODAY, would pony up the thousands to secure seats. I highly doubt it.

So - they do a new CBA at some point, and hockey starts again - December 15, January 15, October next fall - what do we fans do?

We could boycott them, not watch, not buy tickets, not buy merchandise.

Who does that hurt? Yeah, the owners, the players - but more, it hurts t fans, like us.

We on Hockeybuzz (and other boards) obviously love hockey - love to play (those that do), love to watch, love to discuss and argue about. Otherwise we wouldn't be checking in here every (almost?) day - all of us - even Bogie.

We'll be back the day they settle; we'll watch all the games; we'll buy the tickets; we'll spend the time, the money, the emotional ups and downs - because if we don't, who's going to be hurt?

Us.

Who here can honestly say otherwise?
- StLBravesFan

I personally have done this. I walked away from baseball and the Cubs after 2008. The circus, etc, whatever you want to call it, and the lack of winning and continually choking had sent me packing. I don't miss baseball 1 bit. Hockey is a very small niche....if said invididual can withstand walking away or viewing from a far, the NHL WILL be in trouble. They are counting on the die hards to stay on board. Their perceived battle lies in trying to regain the casual fan.

The biggest variable that you forget is that the Hawks recently WON a cup. A lot of die hards, like msyelf, were happy to have that 1 in our lifetime.

I personally have done this. I walked away from baseball and the Cubs after 2008. The circus, etc, whatever you want to call it, and the lack of winning and continually choking had sent me packing. I don't miss baseball 1 bit. Hockey is a very small niche....if said invididual can withstand walking away or viewing from a far, the NHL WILL be in trouble. They are counting on the die hards to stay on board. Their perceived battle lies in trying to regain the casual fan.

The biggest variable that you forget is that the Hawks recently WON a cup. A lot of die hards, like msyelf, were happy to have that 1 in our lifetime.
- SteveRain

You left baseball because of what happened on the field, not because of a legal/economic dispute - may be different with your feelings on hockey after the settlement.

Should they begin play in December this year, on February 15, let's all reflect on our attitudes and behavior toward hockey and honestly post here that we're watching more or less, spending more or less, are more or less emotionally and intellectually involved with the Blackhawks and hockey.

Tomorrow is D day. NO spin by either side. Either they get traction and get this working, or it will take a Tiny Tim christmas miracle to save this season.

Both sides seem to be beyond frustrated based on the quotes.
- SteveRain

As much as I blame Bettman for the ridiculous over-expansion and how much of this issue today is about supporting that, Don Fehr is a gigantic jag who pretty much ruined baseball for a lot of fans.

Impossible to negotiate with because he doesn't want a mutually beneficial deal. He wants to humiliate and hurt the other side—no matter the cost.

You left baseball because of what happened on the field, not because of a legal/economic dispute - may be different with your feelings on hockey after the settlement.

Should they begin play in December this year, on February 15, let's all reflect on our attitudes and behavior toward hockey and honestly post here that we're watching more or less, spending more or less, are more or less emotionally and intellectually involved with the Blackhawks and hockey.
- StLBravesFan

I can tell you already I have sold a vast majority of home games. Depending upon the schedule that number could change, but I personally will spend LESS money on the Hawks this year.

Once the dust settles, the product on the ice is NOT championship calliber.

As much as I blame Bettman for the ridiculous over-expansion and how much of this issue today is about supporting that, Don Fehr is a gigantic jag who pretty much ruined baseball for a lot of fans.

Impossible to negotiate with because he doesn't want a mutually beneficial deal. He wants to humiliate and hurt the other side—no matter the cost.
- John Jaeckel

Agreed. ITs' really an ego contest. Daly and Bettman vs the Fehr brothers, with small market owners, and players caught in between.

The players really need to shut up...Versteeg should be kissing @ss that he got a 4.25 a year deal. Which is why Dave Bolland won't be on this team in 2 years. He's going to want money based on playoff reputation and nobody sane would pay an injury prone, 3rd line center 4.5+ a year.

As much as I blame Bettman for the ridiculous over-expansion and how much of this issue today is about supporting that, Don Fehr is a gigantic jag who pretty much ruined baseball for a lot of fans.

Impossible to negotiate with because he doesn't want a mutually beneficial deal. He wants to humiliate and hurt the other side—no matter the cost.
- John Jaeckel

What you say seems true - not really a fan of Frere Fehrs - but:

No MLB work stoppages (play stoppages?) since 1994 vs. four now in the NHL under Bettman.

Different sports, different economics, I know, but Fehr has proved he can come to an agreement; Bettman hasn't.

Agreed. ITs' really an ego contest. Daly and Bettman vs the Fehr brothers, with small market owners, and players caught in between.

The players really need to shut up...Versteeg should be kissing @ss that he got a 4.25 a year deal. Which is why Dave Bolland won't be on this team in 2 years. He's going to want money based on playoff reputation and nobody sane would pay an injury prone, 3rd line center 4.5+ a year.
- SteveRain

Agree 100% - and Versteeg and others should shut up not because they have big contracts, but because it's just so un-helpful.

Hope you enjoy Russia, you com-symp, you fellow travelor, you pinko, you "better red than dead" wussy....

As much as I blame Bettman for the ridiculous over-expansion and how much of this issue today is about supporting that, Don Fehr is a gigantic jag who pretty much ruined baseball for a lot of fans.

Impossible to negotiate with because he doesn't want a mutually beneficial deal. He wants to humiliate and hurt the other side—no matter the cost.
- John Jaeckel

From where I sit, albeit far away from the negotiating table, I have been involved in more than my share of haggling...

Bettman has been a step ahead of Fehr since the beginning.

He pulled his trump card out the other day just to flash it....Asking for a 2 week hiatus. Fehr knows time is not his his allie so he "wrestles" Bettman and the owners back to the table...

The owners go and talk with Fehr with 0 accomplished and now they demand the PA to come up with a new proposal.

So Bettman and company has everyone back on their heels and Fehr knows no matter what he proposes he is negotiating from a greater position of weakness than he imagined.

I know many have thought my views were cynical about a lost season or prolonged lockout but so far they have played out....

My guess is if this doesn't end by mid December the season is toast as the players will realize thye must sacrifice the entire year to fix things.

On Twitter@AlCimaglia

From where I sit, albeit far away from the negotiating table, I have been involved in more than my share of haggling...

Bettman has been a step ahead of Fehr since the beginning.

He pulled his trump card out the other day just to flash it....Asking for a 2 week hiatus. Fehr knows time is not his his allie so he "wrestles" Bettman and the owners back to the table...

The owners go and talk with Fehr with 0 accomplished and now they demand the PA to come up with a new proposal.

So Bettman and company has everyone back on their heels and Fehr knows no matter what he proposes he is negotiating from a greater position of weakness than he imagined.

I know many have thought my views were cynical about a lost season or prolonged lockout but so far they have played out....

My guess is if this doesn't end by mid December the season is toast as the players will realize thye must sacrifice the entire year to fix things.

On Twitter@AlCimaglia
- Al

I don't really care anymore...just wake me up when they start playing again. This is my reaction to any CBA news:

So - they do a new CBA at some point, and hockey starts again - December 15, January 15, October next fall - what do we fans do?

We could boycott them, not watch, not buy tickets, not buy merchandise.

Who does that hurt? Yeah, the owners, the players - but more, it hurts t fans, like us.

We on Hockeybuzz (and other boards) obviously love hockey - love to play (those that do), love to watch, love to discuss and argue about. Otherwise we wouldn't be checking in here every (almost?) day - all of us - even Bogie.
We'll be back the day they settle; we'll watch all the games; we'll buy the tickets; we'll spend the time, the money, the emotional ups and downs - because if we don't, who's going to be hurt?

Us.

Who here can honestly say otherwise?
- StLBravesFan

Checking in!!

Are we there yet??

Didn't think so!

I don't really care anymore...just wake me up when they start playing again. This is my reaction to any CBA news:



- DarthKane

I am with you pal. LOL!!

From where I sit, albeit far away from the negotiating table, I have been involved in more than my share of haggling...

Bettman has been a step ahead of Fehr since the beginning.

He pulled his trump card out the other day just to flash it....Asking for a 2 week hiatus. Fehr knows time is not his his allie so he "wrestles" Bettman and the owners back to the table...

The owners go and talk with Fehr with 0 accomplished and now they demand the PA to come up with a new proposal.

So Bettman and company has everyone back on their heels and Fehr knows no matter what he proposes he is negotiating from a greater position of weakness than he imagined.

I know many have thought my views were cynical about a lost season or prolonged lockout but so far they have played out....

My guess is if this doesn't end by mid December the season is toast as the players will realize thye must sacrifice the entire year to fix things.

On Twitter@AlCimaglia
- Al

>As many have said recently, the NHL/NHLPA are in the midst of self-destruction
>Bettman prepared for several years for the last lockout and has a "go-to" law firm that specializes in "black-ops" labor negotiations
>Don't think for one second Bettman doesn't have a book on how to play Fehr
>This could end up a TWO YEAR stoppage
>The players should listen to Mark Recchi -- owners always find a way to pay good players big money -- no matter the "made-up" rules
>The players need the Fehr-induced belief that they are more important than the owners removed from their minds
>Every day they believe this, is another day they lose money
>Money they will never get back

From where I sit, albeit far away from the negotiating table, I have been involved in more than my share of haggling...

Bettman has been a step ahead of Fehr since the beginning.

He pulled his trump card out the other day just to flash it....Asking for a 2 week hiatus. Fehr knows time is not his his allie so he "wrestles" Bettman and the owners back to the table...

The owners go and talk with Fehr with 0 accomplished and now they demand the PA to come up with a new proposal.

So Bettman and company has everyone back on their heels and Fehr knows no matter what he proposes he is negotiating from a greater position of weakness than he imagined.

I know many have thought my views were cynical about a lost season or prolonged lockout but so far they have played out....

My guess is if this doesn't end by mid December the season is toast as the players will realize thye must sacrifice the entire year to fix things.

On Twitter@AlCimaglia
- Al

I hope you aren't crediting Bettman with a brilliantl strategy that he alone devised. When you have 3 Aces in your hand Poker isnt really a hard game. And for that matter, what he and the Owners are trying to clawback is alot of stuff that shouldnt have been given to the players when they really had them over a barrel after the cancelling the 2004 season.

Why did they agree to a 57-43 split of revenues last time - didn't computers exist way back then? Why didn't they restrict contract terms to 5 years at that time when everybody and their uncle knows that a player can't be insured against injury beyond 5 years. That's all on Bettman IMO. I guess they couldn't think of everything when writing up the CBA on the back of a wet cocktail napkin during the 2 hours in the bar.

I'm no fan of Fehr but he's trying to bluff his way through this with a pair deuces in his hand and keep 700 emotional young guys with no negotiating background under control. He can't win this battle, its really only a matter of how much he loses and when it will be finalized. 200+ guys will never play in the league again if there is no season. (I've heard rumours that there is a breakaway group of players who's allegiance to the PA is on a thin thread).

The longer this goes the worse the public personna of Bettman becomes. The owners will stand by him publicly but eventually it may be in their interest to buy the rest of his contract out and install someone who can curry some favour with the paying public who for the most part hate the site of the little weasel. That's not good for business going forward.

RIP Bettman and Fehr.