I hope you aren't crediting Bettman with a brilliantl strategy that he alone devised. When you have 3 Aces in your hand Poker isnt really a hard game. And for that matter, what he and the Owners are trying to clawback is alot of stuff that shouldnt have been given to the players when they really had them over a barrel after the cancelling the 2004 season.

Why did they agree to a 57-43 split of revenues last time - didn't computers exist way back then? Why didn't they restrict contract terms to 5 years at that time when everybody and their uncle knows that a player can't be insured against injury beyond 5 years. That's all on Bettman IMO. I guess they couldn't think of everything when writing up the CBA on the back of a wet cocktail napkin during the 2 hours in the bar.

I'm no fan of Fehr but he's trying to bluff his way through this with a pair deuces in his hand and keep 700 emotional young guys with no negotiating background under control. He can't win this battle, its really only a matter of how much he loses and when it will be finalized. 200+ guys will never play in the league again if there is no season. (I've heard rumours that there is a breakaway group of players who's allegiance to the PA is on a thin thread).

The longer this goes the worse the public personna of Bettman becomes. The owners will stand by him publicly but eventually it may be in their interest to buy the rest of his contract out and install someone who can curry some favour with the paying public who for the most part hate the site of the little weasel. That's not good for business going forward.

RIP Bettman and Fehr.
- RickJ

As far as crediting Bettman well...
Sometimes you end up on third base without hitting a triple.

Fehr is supposed to be a professional and now he has been reduced to negotiating with himself...

The last CBA wasn't done well and all the success that happened afterwards was largely due to things Bettman/owners couldn't predict.

Comcast/NBC/Versus marriage, the rise of the Canadian economy while our dollar sinks and the price of oil rises etc...

I guess my view has been there will be a period where everyone will pay for the accidental good fortune and now we are seeing it...

In the end the fans are paying higher tix prices than before the last lockout and they still keep showing up, at least in some places.

My hope is if a season is lost something is accomplished so a better framework than after the last lockout is created.

Bettman was in a superior position no doubt but Fehr has been a huge disappointment....Maybe all the youth in the leadership of the PA will tolerate him...Then again maybe not, which will be a another step backwards.

On Twitter@AlCimaglia

As far as crediting Bettman well...
Sometimes you end up on third base without hitting a triple.

Fehr is supposed to be a professional and now he has been reduced to negotiating with himself...

The last CBA wasn't done well and all the success that happened afterwards was largely due to things Bettman/owners couldn't predict.

Comcast/NBC/Versus marriage, the rise of the Canadian economy while our dollar sinks and the price of oil rises etc...

I guess my view has been there will be a period where everyone will pay for the accidental good fortune and now we are seeing it...

In the end the fans are paying higher tix prices than before the last lockout and they still keep showing up, in some places at least.

My hope is if a season is lost something is accomplished so a better framework than after the last lockout is created.

Bettman was in a superior position no doubt but Fehr has been a huge disappointment....Maybe all the youth in the leadership of the PA will tolerate him...Then again maybe not, which will be a another step backwards.

On Twitter@AlCimaglia
- Al

Maybe you know but I can't figure out what strategy Fehr has sold the players on to keep going down this path, Just seems that it is stall, to evade the issues and agree to absolutely none of the critical economic issues on the table. Wait it out, the owners will crack.

Or is his objective to get into a bigger war involving the existence of the salary cap which would make the current nedotiations look like a little skirmish.

I will say Saad kind of reminds me of Jamie Benn and that is good news. The russian is definetly the sleeper and could be the best of the bunch. I also like Danault but he is probably a third line player, second line at best. All in all it was a very good draft for Chicago.

I hope you aren't crediting Bettman with a brilliantl strategy that he alone devised. When you have 3 Aces in your hand Poker isnt really a hard game. And for that matter, what he and the Owners are trying to clawback is alot of stuff that shouldnt have been given to the players when they really had them over a barrel after the cancelling the 2004 season.

Why did they agree to a 57-43 split of revenues last time - didn't computers exist way back then? Why didn't they restrict contract terms to 5 years at that time when everybody and their uncle knows that a player can't be insured against injury beyond 5 years. That's all on Bettman IMO. I guess they couldn't think of everything when writing up the CBA on the back of a wet cocktail napkin during the 2 hours in the bar.

I'm no fan of Fehr but he's trying to bluff his way through this with a pair deuces in his hand and keep 700 emotional young guys with no negotiating background under control. He can't win this battle, its really only a matter of how much he loses and when it will be finalized. 200+ guys will never play in the league again if there is no season. (I've heard rumours that there is a breakaway group of players who's allegiance to the PA is on a thin thread).

The longer this goes the worse the public personna of Bettman becomes. The owners will stand by him publicly but eventually it may be in their interest to buy the rest of his contract out and install someone who can curry some favour with the paying public who for the most part hate the site of the little weasel. That's not good for business going forward.

RIP Bettman and Fehr.
- RickJ

Overall revenue growth was not projected to be that large I bet.

And issue really isn't over all revenue growth... It is teams like Chicago, Boston, Vancouver, NYR, Detroit... who have seen revenues jump exponentially VS teams like Nashville or Carolina who have seen revenues gradually increase or Phoenix where it is a giant black hole of awful.

A hard cap based on the median hockey related revenue rather than the overall NHL revenue would have been more prudent and maybe delayed this lockout for another few years depending on the economic situation in the states. However getting the union to bite on that as it would negatively impact player salaries would probably be a nightmare.

Basically it isn't just one big number. It is 28 numbers, thrown out of whack by about 12. And it is a very interesting argument to say...

Should salaries be reduced and cap rules intelligently adjusted to keep everyone employed and provide a profitable and competitive environment for the lower revenue teams OR should the very successful subsidize the break even and unsuccessful teams and players inflated salaries possibly in an unsustainable manner?

So, is league parity worth all this hassle?

Though, really I think "parity" is just the guise the owners want to use for profit guarantees. Yes, I'm still squarely in the blame the owners camp.

So, is league parity worth all this hassle?

Though, really I think "parity" is just the guise the owners want to use for profit guarantees. Yes, I'm still squarely in the blame the owners camp.
- shruew

I don't know about blaming anyone but I thought the first proposal the owners offered was a ridiculous insult and a terrible way to kick off a negotiation.

With that said, I don't know that the PA was ready to be so productive either - we'll never know. Bettman brought bad blood to the table; I think because he feared Fehr.

I will say Saad kind of reminds me of Jamie Benn and that is good news. The russian is definetly the sleeper and could be the best of the bunch. I also like Danault but he is probably a third line player, second line at best. All in all it was a very good draft for Chicago.
- flyerdude17

Appreciate the comments but Saad and Benn are pretty different type players to me.

So, is league parity worth all this hassle?

Though, really I think "parity" is just the guise the owners want to use for profit guarantees. Yes, I'm still squarely in the blame the owners camp.
- shruew

"League parity" is turning into "League parody" - sporadic meetings (don't think you can call them "negotiations"), self serving (and, at least short term, probably damaging) public statements and insults, no serious efforts to bridge the gap, no understanding of what another lost season (or two, or three, or....) can do to the league, the teams, the players.

And now, according to Garth quoting a tweet by Pierre LaBrun, the PA has sent a letter to Parliament, blasting the owners for causing this whole mess.

Time for some organization to find a way to get control of the Stanley Cup away from the NHL and into the control of some league / hockey organization that is actually playing the game: give it to the Memorial Cup winner, the World Juniors winner....

I will say Saad kind of reminds me of Jamie Benn and that is good news. The russian is definetly the sleeper and could be the best of the bunch. I also like Danault but he is probably a third line player, second line at best. All in all it was a very good draft for Chicago.
- flyerdude17

Appreciate the comments but Saad and Benn are somewhat different type players to me.

I just want to wish Blackhawk Nation a Happy and Safe Thanksgiving.

Maybe you know but I can't figure out what strategy Fehr has sold the players on to keep going down this path, Just seems that it is stall, to evade the issues and agree to absolutely none of the critical economic issues on the table. Wait it out, the owners will crack.

Or is his objective to get into a bigger war involving the existence of the salary cap which would make the current nedotiations look like a little skirmish.
- RickJ

For Fehr waiting it out is a losers strategy in this case....

Even if an entire season is missed ...Who is the biggest loser?

Almost all players can't make the $$ they can playing hockey doing anything else.

Or the owners...Many who either lose a lot of $$ by owning a team and all of whom don't count on it as a primary sorce of income.

Happy Thanksgiving to all......

For Fehr waiting it out is a losers strategy in this case....

Even if an entire season is missed ...Who is the biggest loser?

Almost all players can't make the $$ they can playing hockey doing anything else.

Or the owners...Many who either lose a lot of $$ by owning a team and all of whom don't count on it as a primary sorce of income.
- Al

People can hate on Bettman all they want, but you have to give him credit for his negotiations skills. Plus, keep in mind that he's acting on behalf of the owners, it's not like he's making these demands up on his own. I'm not taking the owners side, but Bettman always seems to be one step ahead of the PA and he wins the battle for public favor.

Happy Thanksgiving to all......
- Al

Happy Thanksgiving to my American brethren!! Have a safe and happy holiday (albeit hockey-free).

Happy Thanksgiving to my American brethren!! Have a safe and happy holiday (albeit National Hockey League hockey -free).
- DarthKane

Corrected. We still have the Dub and the rest of the CHL.

People can hate on Bettman all they want, but you have to give him credit for his negotiations skills. Plus, keep in mind that he's acting on behalf of the owners, it's not like he's making these demands up on his own. I'm not taking the owners side, but Bettman always seems to be one step ahead of the PA and he wins the battle for public favor.
- DarthKane

If he had good negotiating skills, there wouldn't have been a lost season in 2004 and we wouldn't be looking at another one today.

EDIT: He also "negotiated" a deal last time that had to be blown up this time.

Just saying "no, you compromise" and "we want to get an agreement, the other side doesn't" is not being a good negotiator. Don't give him negotiating credit for not negotiating.

A good negotiator gets a collective bargaining agreement done, with some gains and some losses.

Of course, Frere Fehrs are not being good negotiators, either.

So, is league parity worth all this hassle?

Though, really I think "parity" is just the guise the owners want to use for profit guarantees. Yes, I'm still squarely in the blame the owners camp.
- shruew

Parity has much more to do with the three point made for TV point system rather than the hard salary cap.

If he had good negotiating skills, there wouldn't have been a lost season in 2004 and we wouldn't be looking at another one today.

EDIT: He also "negotiated" a deal last time that had to be blown up this time.

Just saying "no, you compromise" and "we want to get an agreement, the other side doesn't" is not being a good negotiator. Don't give him negotiating credit for not negotiating.

A good negotiator gets a collective bargaining agreement done, with some gains and some losses.

Of course, Frere Fehrs are not being good negotiators, either.
- StLBravesFan

Bettman doesn't have to be a great negotiator because he was dealt pocket Aces to start....All he needs to do is be a step ahead of Fehr, and so far mission accomplished for the owners.

Bettman doesn't have to be a great negotiator because he was dealt pocket Aces to start....All he needs to do is be a step ahead of Fehr, and so far mission accomplished for the owners.
- Al

yep.....and ka-ka-kaboom. Expect Toews, Sharp, Keith etc with whole bunch of others to punch their ticket for Europe in the next week.

Bettman doesn't have to be a great negotiator because he was dealt pocket Aces to start....All he needs to do is be a step ahead of Fehr, and so far mission accomplished for the owners.
- Al

I was responding to DK, but I don't see how you can in any sense say "mission accomplished" when every day we get closer to killing the season.

Unless that was the goal.

If he is leading the owners, he is leading them into a disaster.

If he is following the owners, he is a total failure for not getting them to understand the foolish danger of the trip.

If he's just protecting his $8MM per year job, he's more selfish than the most selfish player on the other side.

yep.....and ka-ka-kaboom. Expect Toews, Sharp, Keith etc with whole bunch of others to punch their ticket for Europe in the next week.
- bogiedoc

And when Johnnie comes marching home again (hurrah, hurrah) - who / how many will be limping too badly to play.

Watching Peoria and the Ice Hogs on the 'net. Saad with a beauty move to score a breakaway shortie, giving the the Hogs a 2-0 lead. Then the Rockford Floaters allowed 3 straight goals and trailed 3-2 at the end of one.

This team is terrible defensively and takes far too many penalties. Not sure how much quality player development is going on down there given these two glaring facts.

I was responding to DK, but I don't see how you can in any sense say "mission accomplished" when every day we get closer to killing the season.

Unless that was the goal.

If he is leading the owners, he is leading them into a disaster.

If he is following the owners, he is a total failure for not getting them to understand the foolish danger of the trip.

If he's just protecting his $8MM per year job, he's more selfish than the most selfish player on the other side.
- StLBravesFan

Make no mistake the owners are more united than the players at this point.

Unless I'm missing something the owners haven't given an inch and now Fehr is in a corner.

If he waits the season is toast and if he tells his troops to stand down...What was the sense in missing 1/2 the season?

I was responding to a comment you made...I get it you are upset but there are many people who are affected far more than you....I am one of them from a monetary standpoint.

But it is what it is and the owners are far closer to accomplishing what they set after than the players....If that means missing a season they seem ok with it..So they are accomplishing their mission.

This is a black eye for the sport no doubt but it is not a shock to me.

Watching Peoria and the Ice Hogs on the 'net. Saad with a beauty move to score a breakaway shortie, giving the the Hogs a 2-0 lead. Then the Rockford Floaters allowed 3 straight goals and trailed 3-2 at the end of one.

This team is terrible defensively and takes far too many penalties. Not sure how much quality player development is going on down there given these two glaring facts.
- philco28

Like I said and have written many times....

Not being an experienced head coach before getting the bench boss job in the AHL matters...

Make no mistake the owners are more united than the players at this point.

Unless I'm missing something the owners haven't given an inch and now Fehr is in a corner.

If he waits the season is toast and if he tells his troops to stand down...What was the sense in missing 1/2 the season?

I was responding to a comment you made...I get it you are upset but there are many people who are affected far more than you....I am one of them from a monetary standpoint.

But it is what it is and the owners are far closer to accomplishing what they set after than the players....If that means missing a season they seem ok with it..So they are accomplishing their mission.

This is a black eye for the sport no doubt but it is not a shock to me.
- Al

Fehr looked pretty disillusioned at the end of media interview when the meetings concluded. Almost like a "this is hopeless" expression.

I'm very tired of hearing players call the negotiations experience "frustrating". Why? Because the other side isn't willing to give in and say OK like they have when your agent browbeats a General Manager into an inflated contract you really haven't earned.

Here's another stat - 40% of the players in the league are earning $700K or less. What are these guys getting out of this?