PHUCK 'EM ALL
- philco28

You got that right Phil, say hi to Boldy!

What I don't understand is does anyone think the deal that could be signed will be much better than what is in the future? After all the losses and a short term deal like the NHLPA wants, how is that deal going to be better?
- themizer

its going to get worse with each day....and when I see a complete dough head like Hartnell spouting off about the PA's solidarity, it just shows how asinine the players really are.

The longer this goes the worse it gets for everyone, at some point you have to decide to cut your losses before they extend way beyond any reasonable returns. I think they are clearly way past that point.

There are lots of players from what you read that want a deal done too. Just as you are saying some owners don't like the direction things have gone.
- themizer

True but at the same time you have see the players perspective. During the last shut down the players gave up a lot. The want them to do the same this time.......and if logic follows it sets a precedent for future negotiations. I don't like it as much as the next fan but at the same time Fehr is what the PA needs. The reason why this has become so bad relates to the last work stoppage. The players don't trust the owners and that goes back to then......

I don't think that at all, I think he has the owners beyond frustrated. They've never have had to deal with a guy like Fehr. There's a reason they wanted to try and close that deal without him in the room.
- dan9189

Do you think the players ever look at it from a dollars point of view and understand what they are leaving on the table? Is leaving millions on the table with a short career worth it to say you are right? Is winning against the owners worth the cost? I don't see the proposal on the table worth any of that...just my opinion though.

its going to get worse with each day....and when I see a complete dough head like Hartnell spouting off about the PA's solidarity, it just shows how asinine the players really are.
- Barx

What did Hartnell say exactly? Is he with Fehr or does he think it is time for others to step up and give him the boot?? Just wondering, I really like Hartnell , he really is a down to earth guy and is not a mirror kisser like Toews and Crosby. Bit rough around the edges but his teamates love him, a real team player.

True but at the same time you have see the players perspective. During the last shut down the players gave up a lot. The want them to do the same this time.......and if logic follows it sets a precedent for future negotiations. I don't like it as much as the next fan but at the same time Fehr is what the PA needs. The reason why this has become so bad relates to the last work stoppage. The players don't trust the owners and that goes back to then......
- UnnamedSource

Well if the NHL wants a 10 year CBA and the Players want something shorter, that goes against some of that logic. If logic follows we would be in a lockout situation sooner with the players offer.

You got that right Phil, say hi to Boldy!
- flyerdude17

I would bro...if he were here


I wouldn't know Boldy these days in cyberspace even if i was Kreskin

John Jaeckel: Players Should Fire Fehr
- John Jaeckel

Well said, JJ!

the NHL does not have the years of popularity equity built up with the public that MLB did. MLB suffered greatly for awhile and it took 10 years or so to recover. The NHL cannot afford that
- furso27

And a healthy dose of juiced-up players.

Not a lawyer, but what I understand about desertification is that it won't work for the NHLPA.

The NFL is a monopoly, there really is no other comparable option for NFL players. The CFL is too small, and there's no one else out there playing
american football.

On the other hand, there are a myriad of options for hockey players, as we've seen in the lockout. In addition to the AHL, there are professional leagues in Switzerland, Germany, Finland, Russia, etc. Lots of places to go play. The NHL players have options, the footballers do not.
- scottak

I know a couple of other people have responded/countered this, but it's my understanding that you are right in this assessment.

I read an article about a week ago that pretty much stated the same things you just said. The players HAVE other options and the fact that a lot of them have already taken advantage of them works against them, cause how are you gonna say the owners are restricting you from playing/making a living when you are playing/making a living. Add to that the fact that recent court decisions have gone against unions in this matter(Brady et all vs. NFL) and it's already not looking good.

Another draw back is as already mentioned, the time it will take in court. Saw yesterday that it could take 2-4 years. How many players want to play in Europe away from their families for 3 years? In fact the last anti-trust law suit successful in pro sports was in 1993 when NFL players took 4 years to negate "type B free agency" The players played the entire 4 years without guaranteed contracts, but they played which wouldn't be the case here for the NHL players.

Another possible, but highly unlikely, drawback for the players is that now the NHL can make any rules they want. You know that $8 million salary you had, now the max a player can make is $5 million. Better make sure you invest wisely too, cause you no longer have a pension.

Decertification would allow the players to challenge the salary cap in the court system, owners don't want that at all. That's something they want to avoid at all costs.
- dan9189

Maybe.....but the league can show ON PAPER that over half the teams LOST money some tens of millions ....

Whats your deal? You do realize my name is more or less a joke. How have the players screwed this? Did they give themselves these long term deals? Did Marian Hossa or Luongo ask for a 14 year contract? The owners created this mess and if you don't realize it then I'm sorry. For instance look what the owner for the Minnesota Wild did. Signs Parise and Suter to these obnoxious contracts and then becomes one of the hardline owners in this whole process. What???
- UnnamedSource

So what if they signed them to the deals, the old CBA was still in place, the players knew the CBA was expiring and the very real chance they were going to have to give up some of that money, so knew what was going on, if they didn't then they are completely neive and stupid and really don't deserve to be where they are.

At some point in time, you just have to say you know what screw this, I want to play hockey, if they were trying to win a P.R battle they have just lost it BIG TIME, won't matter what they say now. Pensions for (frank)s sake, give me a break, greedy, wienerheads and the season should just be cancelled, I don't care if I don't see one of them play again.

This can all be fixed by getting rid of Fehr and they will be playing within 2 weeks probably and essentially a deal they pretty much agreed with.

Do you think the players ever look at it from a dollars point of view and understand what they are leaving on the table? Is leaving millions on the table with a short career worth it to say you are right? Is winning against the owners worth the cost? I don't see the proposal on the table worth any of that...just my opinion though.
- themizer

+100

Well if the NHL wants a 10 year CBA and the Players want something shorter, that goes against some of that logic. If logic follows we would be in a lockout situation sooner with the players offer.
- themizer

+1

Well if the NHL wants a 10 year CBA and the Players want something shorter, that goes against some of that logic. If logic follows we would be in a lockout situation sooner with the players offer.
- themizer

I really don't understand why 10 years is a deal breaker for the players. They would be dancing on air today if the deal they were "forced" to swallow after the last lock out had been a 10 year deal. The GMs will find a way to pay the players.

One question I have is: Who is Fehr representing? There are over 600 players in the PA, but how many of them will ever be affected by a contract limit of 5 years? It almost seems that the best interests of the top 50 or so players is keeping the other 550+ out of a job for the time being.

I pretty much agree with all you wrote JJ.

The NHL made some very big concessions which I believe a notable numbers of owners were against but agreed to because they figured it would get the players back on the ice.

Instead of agreeing to a good offer and getting the game back Fehr figured he would squeeze even more out of the NHL. He would show everyone that he was going to be the winner. He knows the NHL wants a season so he figures he has the leverage to push them over a cliff.

Instead it is going to be the pack of lemmings (the players) that are blindly following Fehr that are about to jump over the cliff.

Maybe.....but the league can show ON PAPER that over half the teams LOST money some tens of millions ....
- southernhawk

Huh? What does that have anything to do with the decertification and going to court?

I just can't believe people are still arguying about elements of the CBA. The players should not give more. It's owners time. Players should not negociate contracts length.

WTF??? The problem is there should be no lockout. Bettman should'nt be there and the position of Fehr should'nt exist. Players have agents who negociate for them. The get multimillions contracts. They dont need a representative. Heck, they dont need a union.

We need a hockey figure, like Gretzky to decide whats good for hockey. Then, the players should have a union but for health issues. Not for salaries. If they're dumb enough to spend all the money they get during there career, wow. Then they dont deserve nothing. But what amaze me most is that they dont care about there life after there short hockey career.

Well, Owners are Greedy and players are stupid and greedy.

What??

In the 10 years since, baseball demolished damage from its "labour disaster era" of 1981-1995. By 2010, revenues hit $7 billion and MLB just signed three new TV deals worth $12.4 billion through 2021. The playoffs are so incredibly good that you have to wonder when the devil's going to start collecting whoever sold their souls for this.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/...seballs-labour-peace.html
- Feeling_Glucky

I am aware of that and it's a very good point. However, for the average fan actually going to a game is much more, if not prohibitively expensive, and anecdotally (I admit) many fans left in 94 and are now only casual fans at best. Clearly the NFL has eclipsed MLB in pre-eminence in the US since then

Whaa I reported you cause you called me a name WHAAA
- Brukie

No, I did it because you can't punctuate, sweetie

Seems like many people are shifting towards anti-NHLPA now.

To me, ultimately, I don't really care anymore. I really don't. And I wish I did. I'm actually far more excited to see what happens in the international soccer January transfer window than I am about the latest NHL strike news.

That said, I would still affix blame with the owners union (let's forget the unions vs players rhetoric as it implies unions vs capitalism - which this is not). Since the owners want to try to artificially manipulate the market, I'll always be against them. For the same reason I'm generally against labor unions in the open market.

I would be quite happy if the union decerts and the NHL crumbles under not knowing what to do without their anti-trust exemption. It would, of course, mean contraction in the shot term if that's a big no-no for some, I can see how they don't like that option.

As for Fehr, tough to judge until someone finds out what expectations he exactly set with the players. Though, it's hard for me to imagine he's doing well on any of them. If his plan was to get a very favorable deal and/or decert - what's taking him so long to take decisive action? Is he pushing the union in one direction, but the union is taking too long to decide? Don't know.

Clearly looks like Bettman is "winning" - for whatever that's worth.

I'll perk up again once there's a new CBA to read.

Comments like this remind me of comments about how far ahead the players are now compared to where they were in 2004. Yes, they're ahead - but go back to 2004 and project forward based on what the players were getting then, and they've lost in a huge way.

Same thing with MLB. Revenues are much higher than in 1994, they've got a huge TV contract - and yet, if you stepped off of where they were in '93 and poised to go in '94 before the strike hit and project forward, it's pretty clear MLB took a massive hit. Certainly, for the "huge" growth over the last X years, it could have been higher if not for numerous fans who got pissed and left MLB for good - and it's not a trivial number by any stretch.

Moral of the story here: include all of the data and see what conclusion falls out, don't just cherry-pick the points that fit the conclusion you want to believe.
- Irish Blues

Great post

Decertification would allow the players to challenge the salary cap in the court system, owners don't want that at all. That's something they want to avoid at all costs.
- dan9189

And losing the cap is what Fehr is really after.

JJ: I respect Barry Rozner here in Chicago. He tweeted these tweets this evening:

Barry Rozner ‏@BarryRozner

Covered Fehr for 2 decades in MLB. He doesn't dictate or decide. Players make the call. Unlike past incompetence, NHL players now informed.

Barry Rozner ‏@BarryRozner

Owners spent $300 million on contracts in days before lockout. Turned around and said they couldn't afford it. As always owners vs. owners.

Barry Rozner ‏@BarryRozner

You think Fehr told the players to come more than halfway in this after all the givebacks last time? He's not the reason there's no hockey.
- CaptainBlackhawk

I disagree, he can't talk about what is happening today in terms of his slant on 94. The fact remains, they were close to a good deal for both sides u til Fehr killed it for the sake of his "reputation" as a negotiator

You might have just met him. He is well known to those of us in the US. Fehr has made Bettman look good. Can't you see that?!

- John Jaeckel

I'll agree that Fehr is not looking great. But I hardly think Bettman is being made to look good. At the end of the day, these guys are both representatives of their respective parties (players and owners) and they also both have huge ego problems.

I'm not sure why you specifically blame Fehr as opposted to blaming both. You must realize that the offers the owners have put out have been a slap in the face to the players multiple times. Both sides are untrusting of the other because each side is trying to get all they can, rather than work together for a deal.

But that is not specific to Fehr or Bettman. It's definitely both.