Yeah.... I remember the United Steel Workers coming back with similar rhetoric back in the 70's.......just before every steel mill shut down devastating the City of Pittsburgh for more than a couple of decades.

As somebody that has spent a significant amount of time in a union, I can tell you unions have a bad habit of fighting for the top earners. As it's been stated several times around here, the vast majority of the players would never be affected by the remaining issues. If Don Fehr was a real leader, he'd let the latest proposal go to membership.

By the way, the HO HO says hello.....
- madmike71

We must have similar backgrounds - I've been in the steel business for years and sat across the table from the Canadian Steelworkers and the Canadian Autoworkers. I am definitely not pro union.

But NHL hockey and pro sports is different. Bettman and Prokauer Rose have a game plan that repeats - lock the players out and force them to capitulate. Well, sorry to tell you Gary, but Don Fehr isn't going to roll over like the obedient dog you want as a 'negotiating partner'. Those are the facts, deal with it.

I am one of those baseball fans who left in 1994 and never went back. I've never been to a game since. Almost never watch, except occasional playoffs and World Series, only because my wife likes to watch that time of year. And frankly, I don't regret it. I'm getting close in this sport....
- MartiniMan

Don't leave the sport because of these twits. You are a hockey fan in Texas. Rare breed indeed.

Whether you think it's relevant or not JJ - Bettman, the owners and Prokauer Rose use the "Lockout Tool" as their first and principle option to impose their will on the NHLPA right off the bat. Don Fehr is making their decision to do that as painful, exasperating and financially expensive as he can on them. Fehr may be a snake, but Gary Bettman and Bill Daly don't stand on much higher moral ground than Fehr despite their carefully crafted statements in the press conference last night.
- RickJ

You know, this never had to get to a lockout in the first place. Fehr could have been talking with Bettman during the season and laying the groundwork for a new deal that would have avoided any kind of work stoppage; instead, he repeatedly punted starting talks - starting before the All-Star Game and continuing into late May, when he finally said the players would be ready after the Finals concluded.

That in no way excuses how either side has behaved, and I certainly won't mention the "NHL makes an offer, NHLPA says 'um .... we want to talk about this, see you in a week or two" tactic that unnecessarily delayed things some more, but when you piss away 5 months that you could have spent getting something done, you shouldn't be surprised when you struggle to get things done in less than 3.

JJ - games are prohibitively expensive because of supply and demand - Cubs sell out (or used to), therefore they can keep increasing prices; Sox don't, so they have to lower prices.

I've said this here before: blame Harry Carey for outrageous Wrigley Field prices, not players salaries. If salaries dropped by half, ticket prices wouldn't come down by a penny.
- StLBravesFan

That is overly simplistic. In the end, the players, agents and owners are all complicit. And the fans get screwed.

yea beacause losing 24% to bring the EMPLOYEES down to 57% of total revenues before operationg costs is such major concession by the players... Are you (frank)ing kidding me?????? like seriously???? how the (frank) is EMPLOYEES dropping to 57% of revenues a (frank)ing concession, they should feel lucky to be paid what they're paid to playe a (frank)ing game, instead they feel entitled and butt hurt about making millions of (frank)ing dollars... i hope they all get testicular cancer
- SpoiledByOil

I'd ask you to put your emotions aside and look at things logically, but based on the above I suspect that would be difficult if not impossible to do.

Don't they have schools in Edmonton where they teach you how to write coherently?
- StLBravesFan

Oh yea insult the grammar and spelling in my post written from my cell phone at work, sorry I didn't spell check and proof read it for you (frank)ing tool

Oh yea insult the grammar and spelling in my post written from my cell phone at work, sorry I didn't spell check and proof read it for you (frank)ing tool
- SpoiledByOil

I was more concerned with the number of times you used the word "(frank)" - not a cell-phone issue.

Don't leave the sport because of these twits. You are a hockey fan in Texas. Rare breed indeed.
- bloatedmosquito

Born in Chicago and raised in the NW Suburbs. Grew up watching Hull, Mikita, Howe, Beliveau, etc. Started watching as a little tike to see the last couple of Original Six years.

Edit: The Cowboys are the Cowboys, but Dallas is a winner's town. Rangers, Mavs, Stars draw well when they win. When they don't nobody cares.

What we have here is after brinksmanship, negotiation, Fehr committed party foul. Plain and simple. Overplayed his hand and blatantly lied to everyone. You can always hold out, you can implore tactics, but to go to the well 3 or 4 times in 3 days moving goal posts is not good faith negotiation. Grand standing, making formal offers however absurd by either side is one thing, but there are rules and formalities in negotiation and Fehr clearly looked like an ass and was called out on it while he stood up there.

While many will be content to blame strawman Bettman at this point, lets look at facts and what is on the table. It is not complicated. Players know they have to restructure to keep 30 teams alive, but don't want to have to be the only ones to give back. Owners want longer term deal and ability to keep weak teams alive. They arrived at a fair conclusion.
One question in regard to moving goalposts - how many times have Bettman and Daly stated that the current offer on the table is their last and best offer and then changed it to throw more into the pot?

Clearly Don Fehr doesn't feel his drill bit has reached the bottom of the well yet.



Anyhow, somebody tell me where the owners yesterday are being unreasonable. They walked away after they dealt with tempermental Fehr and union constantly changing their mind and moving goal posts. That is juvenile and weak in negotiation. If you don't know clearly what you want and go into negotiation trying to get whatever you can...you will look like a fool and lose. That is what is next.
- TrueGrit

I agree with you to an extent. The owners HAVE tried to settle more recently, but the players are right in saying that the concessions the owners make are based on an already owner-biased offer.

I go back to the equation Matt Carle said months ago after the league's second proposal. The owners don't want to honor the contracts that they sign. Adding money to make whole, but not making the contracts 100% whole is not really a concession.

Imagine your boss said your salary was $100,000/yr. Then they said they were only going to pay you $60,000/yr. You complain so they say "fine, $70,000/yr". Not really a concession cuz you're still down 30%.

Now, that said - the money issues don't seem to be a sticking point anymore, but I'm just framing the conversation - the owners "giving back" a little on a deal that is a major win for them leaves the PA side wary.

As far as the contract stuff, I agree with the league on the 5% differential to prevent back-diving contacts to ease the cap hit. But I agree with the players that contract length shouldn't be capped. With a salary cap AND a capped contract length, there's really no leverage for players. There will be no deal that looks better than another because the length won't change and the money is going to top out somewhere (although who knows... owners are known to spend beyond their means). Plus - GMs/owners build teams around franchise players. Why not lock them up long term? How excited were you when the Hawks locked up Toews, Kane, Seabrook and Keith - the core of their team, long-term? I know you may have had some misgivings since then, but I can go back and find your old blog posts from then... you were pretty ecstatic. So imagine these guys flowing in and out of the team every few years? Not nearly as awesome.

Anyway, sorry for the rant. Like most other diehards, I'm just frustrated. Frustrated at the situation. But I refuse to believe you can place the blame on any one person, or any one group at the negotiating table.

They're both trying to "win" which in this case means everyone loses. That means both sides... and most importantly, the fans.
- lifexkills

Well stated, but at the end of the day here is what is at stake. That is having 30 teams in the league provide the players with the greatest opportunity for work. That is what this deal is about. Players know this and owners know this. Flexibility has to be built in to provide incentive and patience for ownership.

You can see by what the league has proposed is that the key deal for them is obtaining more revenue to put teams in stronger position. The league has owned/subsidized a number of teams the last few years. You can blame Bettman for this, but his error created more jobs for players...there is no arguing that. So now the give back gap is narrowed drastically, owner concession, so what do players want?

I grew up on the south side of chicago and watched unions price themselves out of the free market and watched the economy collapse there. I have no beef with collective process and workers obtaining what is fair, but much of this is just ridiculous.

Whether you think it's relevant or not JJ - Bettman, the owners and Prokauer Rose use the "Lockout Tool" as their first and principle option to impose their will on the NHLPA right off the bat. Don Fehr is making their decision to do that as painful, exasperating and financially expensive as he can on them. Fehr may be a snake, but Gary Bettman and Bill Daly don't stand on much higher moral ground than Fehr despite their carefully crafted statements in the press conference last night.
- RickJ

Rick I agree, but the notion of "punishment" is ridiculous. It's not just the owners who get punished. The owners can and will survive a lost season or season and a half. What about the team and arena employees, or the business owners surrounding the arenas and their families?

If there is any justification for the "punishment" angle it is to make the league less likely to lock players out in the future, correct? When, 10 years from now— when 98% of the current PA membership is retired? What does "punishment" do for them, while they lose millions in salary today?

Fehr screwed everyone yesterday for the sake of his ego and "reputation" as a negotiator. And he cost a lot of people—including likely the players he represent— a lot of money.

and I certainly won't mention the "NHL makes an offer, NHLPA says 'um .... we want to talk about this, see you in a week or two" tactic that unnecessarily delayed things some more.
- Irish Blues

Then also "don't" mention how the owners would shoot down every NHLPA proposal in 1-2 hours either. That helped poison the negotiations as well. You can't negotiate with someone that doesn't seem to be taking you seriously.

I was more concerned with the number of times you used the word "(frank)" - not a cell-phone issue.
- StLBravesFan

Did my language offend you? Or because I'm angry at this whole stupid process and I vent my frustrations with some swearing? What does it matter if I curse while angry? I can hold a conversation quite well without swearing, since it is actually quite vital to my position and previous jobs. But guess what? (frank) that (frank)ing poop I'm (frank)ing angry and I'll (frank)ing swear as much as I (frank)ing want.. (frank) (frank) (frank)ity (frank) (frank)

[quote=RickJ]


No doubt Rick, that is the concession process from owners. Moreover, ultimately what the real problem is, is the tactics and way Fehr and union has negotiated the last few days. The picture painted was of Crosby and his owner making headway, getting some moderate owners in a room having frank coversation..laying a framework. Both sides basically admitting and acknowledging the key points each cares about. Then as it seems to be ready to finalize, Fehr jumps in and says...no...then comes out and lies about it...trying to implore a tactic of lying to public thinking there is no way he can be called on it....and ....BABOOM! Trust and respect disappear from the process in a hurry. Owners did what they should have done, as ultimately they ended up looking like fools, having had serious conversations with players to only have their dad come in last minute and change the rules.

We must have similar backgrounds - I've been in the steel business for years and sat across the table from the Canadian Steelworkers and the Canadian Autoworkers. I am definitely not pro union.

But NHL hockey and pro sports is different. Bettman and Prokauer Rose have a game plan that repeats - lock the players out and force them to capitulate. Well, sorry to tell you Gary, but Don Fehr isn't going to roll over like the obedient dog you want as a 'negotiating partner'. Those are the facts, deal with it.
- RickJ

As someone who walked several picket lines, I am as anti-union as you can get because I've seen it from the inside......and eventually from the other side. I've lost a job because the union didn't feel my title deserved protection (read... my title didn't pay enough). Unions serve a purpose to a degree but they're largely unneeded in this day of 1000's of labor laws. Today's unions kill more jobs than they save.

Regardless, I'll agree that pro sports are different in many ways......all ways that make me want to support the players less. Frankly, I don't even think of them as a true union. I completely agree Fehr won't roll over, but I also say it will be to the detriment of a large (silent) majority of his membership that is not affected by the remaining issues. There's no doubt in my mind if he let the latest proposal go to his membership for a vote, they'd ratify it.

The best thing the media, and us as fans can do....is just to ignore this complete SPIN job by both sides. It's a game of public opinion as each side tries to save face. Forget that. How nice would it be when they roll out these BS press conferences that NOBODY is there to cover it, OR a very SMALL contigent. Here in Chicago, we have lost 2 major beat guys who have gone on to other things. Kudos to those companies who pulled the plug.

NHL barely gets mentioned on the evening news OR even on sportscenter. So while Fehr, Bettman, and the players all think they are front and center news...you are not. You are alienating the fringe fans, you are pissing off the loyal fans, and for what? It's all lies and from biased media members, to moronic players, all these people should shut their mouths and get this deal done. If not go away....and by that...I mean contract. Take away a few small owners, AND player jobs, and then watch the $hit hit the fan.

If not, I can assure all of you, the days of 14K+ at the UC will be a staple again if we don't see hockey before next October. There are too many other options to spend your money on, and with a crap economy....I personally hope they cancel the season so I can get my season ticket money back.

I'm beyond mad or frustrated. You would hope common sense would prevail, but you need somebody in that room with common sense for that to happen.

Its frustrating to watch precious days wither away because of a couple terms of the given proposal. There is no such thing as a perfect deal. Each side will have to bend on different terms of the deal. It looks as though Fehr does not share this mentality. He is head of negotiating for the players. Vote, make a decision, and salvage as much fan base as you possibly can at this point.

I miss the arguments, Vancouver trolls, arguments on Keith losing a step. The NHL needs to come back

Then also "don't" mention how the owners would shoot down every NHLPA proposal in 1-2 hours either. That helped poison the negotiations as well. You can't negotiate with someone that doesn't seem to be taking you seriously.
- lifexkills

See my comment above on how I don't approve of how either side has negotiated. The fact is, no one can say "the owners should have tried to start this earlier" or "the owners haven't pushed for a deal." They tried starting things early, Fehr repeatedly brushed them off. They tried getting a deal done, Fehr repeatedly delayed responding.

BTW, my recollection is that the NHL generally didn't "shoot down" offers outright, they put a counter-offer on the table when the NHLPA made an offer that the NHL considered to be progress. Whether the NHL's definition of "progress" was reasonable is open to debate.

Did my language offend you? Or because I'm angry at this whole stupid process and I vent my frustrations with some swearing? What does it matter if I curse while angry? I can hold a conversation quite well without swearing, since it is actually quite vital to my position and previous jobs. But guess what? (frank) that (frank)ing poop I'm (frank)ing angry and I'll (frank)ing swear as much as I (frank)ing want.. (frank) (frank) (frank)ity (frank) (frank)
- SpoiledByOil

WHOA...we get the point now check in for some anger management input. *sheesh*

WHOA...we get the point now check in for some anger management input. *sheesh*
- bogiedoc

Meh, if you knew me you'd know I actually very very rarely get angry, and probably the last person who actually needs anger management courses

Did my language offend you? Or because I'm angry at this whole stupid process and I vent my frustrations with some swearing? What does it matter if I curse while angry? I can hold a conversation quite well without swearing, since it is actually quite vital to my position and previous jobs. But guess what? (frank) that (frank)ing poop I'm (frank)ing angry and I'll (frank)ing swear as much as I (frank)ing want.. (frank) (frank) (frank)ity (frank) (frank)
- SpoiledByOil

You okay man?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zT2ae1WkuC0

Oh yea insult the grammar and spelling in my post written from my cell phone at work, sorry I didn't spell check and proof read it for you (frank)ing tool
- SpoiledByOil

HockeyyInsiderr? Is that you?

In the end, the players, agents and owners are all complicit. And the fans get screwed.
- John Jaeckel

This is why any fan's feelings about Fehr or Bettman really don't matter. The fans have no representation at this table.

That being said, both Bettman and Fehr are doing nothing but their jobs. The league's leverage in this matter was the lockout - which they used. Then they used the lockout to come to the table with an INSANE initial proposal. In other words, doing what is in the best interests of the owners. Those two things set the tone for the rest of the journey.

Ultimately, the PA's leverage is decertification. Fehr is not only absolutely doing his job, he is doing it well - to represent the players' best interests. If he can squeeze ANYTHING else from the owners by threatening to decertify, he should do it because that is his job.

We all need to remember that if Fehr was not asked to return to "the room" there is certainly no messaging from the players that he was asked to stay out. One can only conclude from that that both Fehr and the players must feel that their leverage to decertify has the potential to obtain more for the PA. To not exercise that leverage is to not do what is in the best interests of the players.

Yeah, as a fan it sucks. A lot. But as I said, we as fans have no seat at this table. And when this does settle, and we all go back to watching games, and buying hockey crap, and caring again, you will know why neither side will EVER care about what we as fans think.

This is why any fan's feelings about Fehr or Bettman really don't matter. The fans have no representation at this table.

That being said, both Bettman and Fehr are doing nothing but their jobs. The league's leverage in this matter was the lockout - which they used. Then they used the lockout to come to the table with an INSANE initial proposal. In other words, doing what is in the best interests of the owners. Those two things set the tone for the rest of the journey.

Ultimately, the PA's leverage is decertification. Fehr is not only absolutely doing his job, he is doing it well - to represent the players' best interests. If he can squeeze ANYTHING else from the owners by threatening to decertify, he should do it because that is his job.

We all need to remember that if Fehr was not asked to return to "the room" there is certainly no messaging from the players that he was asked to stay out.
One can only conclude from that that both Fehr and the players must feel that their leverage to decertify has the potential to obtain more for the PA. To not exercise that leverage is to not do what is in the best interests of the players.

Yeah, as a fan it sucks. A lot. But as I said, we as fans have no seat at this table. And when this does settle, and we all go back to watching games, and buying hockey crap, and caring again, you will know why neither side will EVER care what we as fans think.
- Return of the Roar

My only issue with this is that it seems to be personal with Bettman and Fehr now. You never make business personal, that's why Sonny was a terrible Godfather.

Like I said last night, I don't buy any of the acting that went on last night. It's nothing but acting. If everything was truly off the table then the season would've been cancelled last night. Even as "angry" as GB was he even said, they're going to take a deep breath and try to figure out what to do next.

Personally I'm not favoring either side but what I think happened is the owners finally made some real concessions that they were not willing to make earlier in the negotiations. They were banking on the players accepting those terms without Fehr being in the room (which was NEVER going to happen). The owners were/are super livid because they feel like they've given the most that they can/want to give and the players still want a better deal. I've seen many people say that the NHL has the players in a tough spot, I completely disagree. I think the NHLPA now has the owners is a tough spot. Anyone who's ever been in sales knows that you always start high because once your demands drop, there's no going back. That notion of everything is "off the table" is complete nonsense.

This is simply Fehr/players out bargaining Bettman/owners. The NHL will now have to give more to get a deal done, it's the truth. If not then there is no season and some of these guys will go overseas and play and still make money. Regardless the owners are hurt more by no NHL games/season then the players are. A lost season that might linger into next season might see some franchises not survive and the NHL will do everything in their power to make sure that's not the case, even if it means getting beat in these negotiations. Last but not least don't forget that the NHLPA has the decertification card to play which the owners want to avoid at all costs.

All that being said I think a deal gets done in the next 10 days and I've been pessimistic about the whole season from the start but believe it or not there was progress made the past few days. Don't let "the show" make you believe otherwise.