That is easy, put the NHL offer up to vote by players and I am betting it would have been accepted. The NHL has done their homework and will only give up as much as they can to know they are going to stay alive financially and that makes sense. The players are employees, not owners. The players do not specialize in business, they play hockey is what they do best. Let the owners own and the players play. Realistically the top players in the league are not worth more than a couple million dollars anyway, they are all grossly overpaid to play a game. They are not saving lives or fighting for their country for god's sake. They are only entertainment yet they think they are extra special and nobody is buying it.
- flyerdude17

I agree. They are not saving lives. And I agree that they shouldn't make so much more than a doctor to use an example. But the fact is nobody pays thousands of dollars for a ticket to watch a doc work. We should blame society for that, myself included. But I don't blame the players for being able to make that kind of money because people pay so much to see their talents.

That is easy, put the NHL offer up to vote by players and I am betting it would have been accepted. The NHL has done their homework and will only give up as much as they can to know they are going to stay alive financially and that makes sense. The players are employees, not owners. The players do not specialize in business, they play hockey is what they do best. Let the owners own and the players play. Realistically the top players in the league are not worth more than a couple million dollars anyway, they are all grossly overpaid to play a game. They are not saving lives or fighting for their country for god's sake. They are only entertainment yet they think they are extra special and nobody is buying it.
- flyerdude17

This might be true, but this doesn't mean it would be a good deal for the players (which is why you have union representation). What are the owners sacrificing here ? If they aren't making money, sell the team to someone who can, or move the team to a city which can support it. My understanding of the situation is that players were fine with the status quo. As for player salaries, if a potential roll back resulted in more affordable tickets, you might have me. Guess what, though - it won't - it simply means more money in the owners pockets.

You've got me. I am a Bettman hater. Can you honestly listen to a word he says and not think "fuking weasel". The blame needs to be shared equally between the players and owners. Not just blaming players. They have agreed to go from 57% to 50%. What have the owners done??? Tell me how the owners have given back for the good of the game and get a deal done.....please tell me
- yttrohs

Some seem to think these teams are big money makers....truth is only the top 10 make $ with another 10 being happy just to break even....The last 10 lose money and want no part of a future deal which practically guarantees losses....what have the owners brought? easy one...all the risk .

why would any team agree to a deal where by it's assured they are going to lose money??? rich guys don't stay rich by dumping good $ into bad....funny...thats why they stay rich!!!!

I agree. They are not saving lives. And I agree that they shouldn't make so much more than a doctor to use an example. But the fact is nobody pays thousands of dollars for a ticket to watch a doc work. We should blame society for that, myself included. But I don't blame the players for being able to make that kind of money because people pay so much to see their talents.
- yttrohs

I agree, not really into watching open heart operations or brain surgeries. I take my hat off to all those dedicated doctors who save lives. Entertainment pays the big buck and yes you got to be real good to get to the show. I do not really have a problem with the money they make but do have a problem with them not giving a little bit to make it work. Do you really think the owners would hold out this long if it was not a matter of survival?

Some seem to think these teams are big money makers....truth is only the top 10 make $ with another 10 being happy just to break even....The last 10 lose money and want no part of a future deal which practically guarantees losses....what have the owners brought? easy one...all the risk .
why would any team agree to a deal where by it's assured they are going to lose money??? rich guys don't stay rich by dumping good $ into bad....funny...thats why they stay rich!!!!
- landros 2

If we accept your premise as accurate, why are presumably smart, successfull businessman (I gather they are successful if able to put together enough $'s to buy a team in the 1st place) investing in the supposed break-even/losing money franchises ?

Paul McCann: Enough is Enough
- pmccann

Blaming one person for this lockout is foolish.

Bettman, through the BOG's is the one that locked the players out. Are Fehr's actions any more reprehensible? How about an owner telling Ron Hainsey that bringing Fehr back into the talks would, in and of itself, be a "dealbreaker"?

Sorry, both the owners and players, as well as their representatives, are to blame. Not one of them really cares for the fans. They see us all as walking ATMs. We should, in turn, show them the same level of concern.

This might be true, but this doesn't mean it would be a good deal for the players (which is why you have union representation). What are the owners sacrificing here ? If they aren't making money, sell the team to someone who can, or move the team to a city which can support it. My understanding of the situation is that players were fine with the status quo. As for player salaries, if a potential roll back resulted in more affordable tickets, you might have me. Guess what, though - it won't - it simply means more money in the owners pockets.
- MadCap2008

Look at it this way. You own your own company and invest one million dollars, you have 10 employees and at the end of the year you made a profit of 100,000 dollars after wages and operating expenses. That would be great but now your employees want 50% of your 100,000 leaving you with 50,000 profit on a one million dollar investment that was all yours. I would be pissed, you paid them well and they invested nothing and now want half of what is yours?? Bullcrap!

Blaming one person for this lockout is foolish.

Bettman, through the BOG's is the one that locked the players out. Are Fehr's actions any more reprehensible? How about an owner telling Ron Hainsey that bringing Fehr back into the talks would, in and of itself, be a "dealbreaker"?

Sorry, both the owners and players, as well as their representatives, are to blame. Not one of them really cares for the fans. They see us all as walking ATMs. We should, in turn, show them the same level of concern.
- Jsaquella

I agree with you but you know as well as everybody else the game needs to be fixed and owners should be able to turn a reasonable profit and employees should be just that. Players are spoiled and greedy in my opinon, not all of them but the majority. Remember how I dislike Versteeg when he was a flyer, well nothing has changed and he is long gone. Look forward to your comments on Meltzer's fine blog when we get going again.

Let's see, I believe he oversaw the 1994 strike, the result of which has been almost 20 years of labor peace (yes, it sucked that the 1994 World Series was lost, but hell, I'd trade a lost season for 20 years of labor peace - wouldn't you as an NHL fan ?).

I'm curious as to why the loss of an NHL season/Stanley Cup in 2004/05 didn't cause you to abandon the NHL as the Strike in 1994 caused you to abandon baseball. Is it simply because Fehr wasn't involved ?
- MadCap2008

LABOR PEACE????

This sob was the reason MLB could not institute drug testing and you see what has happened to MLB's reputation. The only time i have ever seen Fehr in a non-confrontatiional position was in front of Congressional Committee where the Senators skewerred him for blocking drug testing.

I knew for the point the NHLPA hired this sh_thead that the hockey was in trouble.

If we accept your premise as accurate, why are presumably smart, successfull businessman (I gather they are successful if able to put together enough $'s to buy a team in the 1st place) investing in the supposed break-even/losing money franchises ?
- MadCap2008

wow two easy questions in a row!!!! simple of the 10 teams that lose money they are located in non traditional hockey markets and time is needed to develop those markets.....They may not be profitable today but with time and $ (the owners $) these astute investors hope that they will develop into a situation where by they can Make a Buck....
Take Philadelphia as an example....when they first came to Philly that was a non-traditional market ....but with time , effort and cash the market now turns a serious dollar....and good on Ed Snider...he took all the risks.
as well some of these guys simply are rich enough to want a team as a hobbie...but a hobby that lose's 20 mil a year can't be very fun after a while...

Let's see, I believe he oversaw the 1994 strike, the result of which has been almost 20 years of labor peace (yes, it sucked that the 1994 World Series was lost, but hell, I'd trade a lost season for 20 years of labor peace - wouldn't you as an NHL fan ?).

I'm curious as to why the loss of an NHL season/Stanley Cup in 2004/05 didn't cause you to abandon the NHL as the Strike in 1994 caused you to abandon baseball. Is it simply because Fehr wasn't involved ?
- MadCap2008

Not at all... the reason was my team was in a pennant race, I was invested in a season when the rug was pulled out from under me as a fan.

Huge difference...

LABOR PEACE????

This sob was the reason MLB could not institute drug testing and you see what has happened to MLB's reputation. The only time i have ever seen Fehr in a non-confrontatiional position was in front of Congressional Committee where the Senators skewerred him for blocking drug testing.

I knew for the point the NHLPA hired this sh_thead that the hockey was in trouble.
- im4preds

Yes, Labor Peace. Drug testing, or lack thereof, was a failure on both sides, but it didn't result in a work stoppage either way. You might think that MLB's reputation took a hit, but the league is actually doing pretty well as far as I can tell. Interesting thing about drug testing, BTW - nobody gives a poop about failed tests in the NFL, guys take their medicine (in the form of suspensions/fines) and we move on. Why is that ?

And again, Fehr wasn't involved in the 1994/2004 lockouts - why does this 2012 lockout seemingly bother you and others more than those ? Bettman is the constant.

Blaming one person for this lockout is foolish.

Bettman, through the BOG's is the one that locked the players out. Are Fehr's actions any more reprehensible? How about an owner telling Ron Hainsey that bringing Fehr back into the talks would, in and of itself, be a "dealbreaker"?

Sorry, both the owners and players, as well as their representatives, are to blame. Not one of them really cares for the fans. They see us all as walking ATMs. We should, in turn, show them the same level of concern.
- Jsaquella

I don't disagree with you JS... you make a solid point. And I do blame both, but I have held back on blasting Fehr and frankly, it was time to do it.

Not at all... the reason was my team was in a pennant race, I was invested in a season when the rug was pulled out from under me as a fan.

Huge difference...
- pmccann

So if the Flyers or Preds (or whomever is your favorite hockey team) were a prohibitive favorite to win the Cup in 2004/05, you would have given up on the NHL and you would hate Bettman ?

And again, Fehr wasn't involved in the 1994/2004 lockouts - why does this 2012 lockout seemingly bother you and others more than those ? Bettman is the constant.
- MadCap2008

Ignoring Fehr's history is a tad disingenuous dontcha think?

So if the Flyers or Preds (or whomever is your favorite hockey team) were a prohibitive favorite to win the Cup in 2004/05, you would have given up on the NHL and you would hate Bettman ?
- MadCap2008

What is so hard to understand? The '94 situation was at the end of a season I had invested time, money and emotion in... the 2004 season never got started.

I agree with you but you know as well as everybody else the game needs to be fixed and owners should be able to turn a reasonable profit and employees should be just that. Players are spoiled and greedy in my opinon, not all of them but the majority. Remember how I dislike Versteeg when he was a flyer, well nothing has changed and he is long gone. Look forward to your comments on Meltzer's fine blog when we get going again.
- flyerdude17

The problem is that in this case, the employees are not just employees, but the product.

Professional sports are not a factory, or coffee shop. There certainly are players who are spoiled and greedy, but there's plenty of owners who are the same way, on an even more epic scale.

If the owners are in such dire straits, how does proposing a 7% cut in the players' revenue share solve the issue? The last lockout, the owners got a 24% cut in the revenue share of the players. This lockout is not about survival, it's about making a cash grab. If that many teams were in such serious financial trouble, why won't they open the books? Why is Bettman still the commish if so many teams are near financial collapse?

As for the reason that owners are willing to lockout players for so long, look at how quickly fans returned in 2005. Owners know that the fans will return, and pay higher ticket prices. Hell, even Bettman stated during the early weeks of the lockout that it wasn't about survival, it was that they felt they were paying too much.

I'm not laying blame solely at the owners & Bettman, either. Fehr's a dirtbag. The players are largely spoiled and greedy. Even if they were to accept the NHL's latest offer, they'd still have an average salary of around $2mm per year. My issue is much deeper. I'm at the point where I am apathetic. I don;t care who wins or loses the labor fight, because regardless, the real loser is the fan.

If there is a season, the NHL will not get a dime of my money. I will not attend a game, buy a jersey or other merchandise, will not order Center Ice, or pay for streaming from NHL.com for the duration of the shortened season. If the season is cancelled, there's a real good possibility I would be gone for good.

I don't disagree with you JS... you make a solid point. And I do blame both, but I have held back on blasting Fehr and frankly, it was time to do it.
- pmccann

I would have just blasted both. I'm really tired of it all. If the players come back making $8.50 an hour or getting 75% of the HRR, whatever...I'm just apathetic and disgusted at the nonsense.

Ignoring Fehr's history is a tad disingenuous dontcha think?
- pmccann

Not really - facts are facts, three "lockouts" in 18 years, Bettman in place for all three and Fehr has been involved in one. There was a lost season in 2004 - it hasn't mattered who was heading up the NHLPA, we have gone through the same nightmare each time.

If we accept your premise as accurate, why are presumably smart, successfull businessman (I gather they are successful if able to put together enough $'s to buy a team in the 1st place) investing in the supposed break-even/losing money franchises ?
- MadCap2008

Just stop.

No one owns a sports team, especially hockey, to make money. Would they like to make money? Sure. It's mainly for the status, and because they're fans.

What is so hard to understand? The '94 situation was at the end of a season I had invested time, money and emotion in... the 2004 season never got started.
- pmccann

Paul, if it was simply about the investment in a season in which you had invested time, money, emotion, then why are you so worked up about this lockout ? The season hasn't started, just as it hadn't in 1994/2004.

From my perspective, the time/emotion in following a team is a 365 day a year deal - you can see that on here as so many of us continue reading/commenting during the offseason when absolutely nothing NHL-related is happening.

The problem is that in this case, the employees are not just employees, but the product.

Professional sports are not a factory, or coffee shop. There certainly are players who are spoiled and greedy, but there's plenty of owners who are the same way, on an even more epic scale.

If the owners are in such dire straits, how does proposing a 7% cut in the players' revenue share solve the issue? The last lockout, the owners got a 24% cut in the revenue share of the players. This lockout is not about survival, it's about making a cash grab. If that many teams were in such serious financial trouble, why won't they open the books? Why is Bettman still the commish if so many teams are near financial collapse?

As for the reason that owners are willing to lockout players for so long, look at how quickly fans returned in 2005. Owners know that the fans will return, and pay higher ticket prices. Hell, even Bettman stated during the early weeks of the lockout that it wasn't about survival, it was that they felt they were paying too much.

I'm not laying blame solely at the owners & Bettman, either. Fehr's a dirtbag. The players are largely spoiled and greedy. Even if they were to accept the NHL's latest offer, they'd still have an average salary of around $2mm per year. My issue is much deeper. I'm at the point where I am apathetic. I don;t care who wins or loses the labor fight, because regardless, the real loser is the fan.

If there is a season, the NHL will not get a dime of my money. I will not attend a game, buy a jersey or other merchandise, will not order Center Ice, or pay for streaming from NHL.com for the duration of the shortened season. If the season is cancelled, there's a real good possibility I would be gone for good.
- Jsaquella

I think the whole point of this hatred towards Fehr is that he lied to the players about both sides being close and bringing the players pension out of nowhere as being in problem in these negociations.

What screwed this all over is Fehr and that top 5% of players on 12 year contracts.

The problem is that in this case, the employees are not just employees, but the product.

Professional sports are not a factory, or coffee shop. There certainly are players who are spoiled and greedy, but there's plenty of owners who are the same way, on an even more epic scale.

If the owners are in such dire straits, how does proposing a 7% cut in the players' revenue share solve the issue? The last lockout, the owners got a 24% cut in the revenue share of the players. This lockout is not about survival, it's about making a cash grab. If that many teams were in such serious financial trouble, why won't they open the books? Why is Bettman still the commish if so many teams are near financial collapse?


I appreciate your point of view and have to agree with you in many ways. I think I am just missing hockey so bad over something so dumb that it makes me wanna puke. Just get it done you guys and give the fans back their game.
As for the reason that owners are willing to lockout players for so long, look at how quickly fans returned in 2005. Owners know that the fans will return, and pay higher ticket prices. Hell, even Bettman stated during the early weeks of the lockout that it wasn't about survival, it was that they felt they were paying too much.

I'm not laying blame solely at the owners & Bettman, either. Fehr's a dirtbag. The players are largely spoiled and greedy. Even if they were to accept the NHL's latest offer, they'd still have an average salary of around $2mm per year. My issue is much deeper. I'm at the point where I am apathetic. I don;t care who wins or loses the labor fight, because regardless, the real loser is the fan.

If there is a season, the NHL will not get a dime of my money. I will not attend a game, buy a jersey or other merchandise, will not order Center Ice, or pay for streaming from NHL.com for the duration of the shortened season. If the season is cancelled, there's a real good possibility I would be gone for good.
- Jsaquella

It is pretty clear that the PA came back and asked for more. How can the owners then be accused of itentionally blowing it up. By all accounts it was the PA who changed the tone and blew up all the progress.
- NightTrain_AlMo

You are correct. But it's also seems they are closer than Bettman and Daly are stating it is. And it was reported some players were told bringing Fehr back into the negotiations would kill it.

I'm not a Fehr fan. At the same time I can't back the owners. I believe if the players voted on the last NHL offer they would probably accept it. But (until last night) I believe if you took the last NHLPA offer and put it to a vote, the majority of the owners would have accepted it.

I never understood the double standard. Donald Fehr's intelligence insulting grandstanding is simply "negotiating" while the owners' first offer, which they knew wasn't going to be accepted, nor did they really intend it to, was an "insult".
- buffalofan19

I don't know of any double standard. I see Fehr being blamed for everything. I see Bettman being blamed for everything.

All the owners and their reps and all the players and their reps should be blamed. I hope this league fails miserably when it comes back.