HIGHLY doubtful.

At that point, time would still have been on the Fehr/PA's side and Fehr would have advised the players, "hold out, because I think we can get more!"

NONE of Fehr's actions (or lack thereof), have indicated that he EVER had ANY INTENTION of striking a deal he absolutely had to, the 11th hour.
- As_I_See_It

Considering the owners offers going from dying on hills and finals offers, its only logical to conclude that both sides had no intentions of striking a deal until the 11th hour.

That is not correct. The players are well represented by a Negotiating Committee made up of players, and ex players. As well as a full contingent of Player Club Representatives. Nothing is kept from the players.
- MJL

Boy I sure am glad you understand all this, considering Fehr is the one who decides if goes to a vote or not.

I dont either, but calling them out for doing whats in the best interests of the people who hired them is ...well....stupid. Whether you agree with their methods or not.
- Gunslinger

I agree...

It's very likely. The players weren't going to miss months of paychecks for what was left to negotiate if that offer was made in October. Fehr and the players weren't going to cave in or be bullied by the NHL or the Owners. If a suitable deal such as the one they are working on now, was available on Oct. The players would have offered tweaks, negotiated them further. Then agreed to a deal and played a full Season.
- MJL

Ah yes, the benefit of hindsight!

The funny thing is that the PA would have been a half billion ahead of where they are now WITHOUT ANY of the associated damage to HRR, fan resentment and apathy had they accepted the offer in October. Many would argue that a half billion dollars, not to mention the dozens of ended careers is worth more than the ground they've made on other issues.

It's pretty safe to say that the PA was still resentful from the previous CBA (despite their salaries increasing by 75% and the league making more money than it ever has) and they hired Fehr for a fight, not to accept an offer in October.

AGAIN. Even if the League/Owners made a "reasonable" offer in October, the PA would have be surprised, but still held out for more because that's what they hired Fehr to do.

My mom made me write it...
- Flyfreaky

I agree 100%. That's why my entire point has been that regardless of when the Negotiations started. There wasn't going to be a deal made before a lockout. Because neither side was prepared to offer a deal that the other side would accept, at that time. Nor were they willing to accept the deals that were on the table at that point.
- MJL

I guess they should have started 3 months earlier than when they did start negotiating then.

- Crimsoninja

Boy I sure am glad you understand all this, considering Fehr is the one who decides if goes to a vote or not.
- Rayven

That is also untrue. The Club Player Representatives, which are the players, are the ones who decide what goes to a vote. Fehr certainly has influence, and gives a recommendation. But he does not control that.

I guess they should have started 3 months earlier than when they did start negotiating then.
- Cheeseballin

I don't think it would've mattered.

Ah yes, the benefit of hindsight!

The funny thing is that the PA would have been a half billion ahead of where they are now WITHOUT ANY of the associated damage to HRR, fan resentment and apathy had they accepted the offer in October. Many would argue that a half billion dollars, not to mention the dozens of ended careers is worth more than the ground they've made on other issues.

It's pretty safe to say that the PA was still resentful from the previous CBA (despite their salaries increasing by 75% and the league making more money than it ever has) and they hired Fehr for a fight, not to accept an offer in October.

AGAIN. Even if the League/Owners made a "reasonable" offer in October, the PA would have be surprised, but still held out for more because that's what they hired Fehr to do.
- As_I_See_It

That arguement/point goes for both sides.

A car salesman does not give you their bottom line offer to begin with that would be stupid. To think the owners would have done that is also stupid. Its called negotiation.
- Cheeseballin

A car salesman also doesn't make an insulting offer at the start of negotiations, ensuring that the other side is pissed off and unwilling to compromise, especially when there is a history of pure hate on both sides. There was always going to be some sort of lockout and the NHL has done everything that the NBA did in their negotiations, the only difference is that the players didn't blink or disintergrate like they did in 04. Fehr's only doing what he was paid millions like Bettman to do, get the best deal possible and keep the PA together through the process. Both sides are going to win and lose with this deal and that generally makes for a good deal if both sides think they gave up too much.

A car salesman also doesn't make an insulting offer at the start of negotiations, ensuring that the other side is pissed off and unwilling to compromise, especially when there is a history of pure hate on both sides. There was always going to be some sort of lockout and the NHL has done everything that the NBA did in their negotiations, the only difference is that the players didn't blink or disintergrate like they did in 04. Fehr's only doing what he was paid millions like Bettman to do, get the best deal possible and keep the PA together through the process. Both sides are going to win and lose with this deal and that generally makes for a good deal if both sides think they gave up too much.
- DariusKnight

HAPPY NEW YEARS TO ALL MY PEEPS

I agree 100%. That's why my entire point has been that regardless of when the Negotiations started. There wasn't going to be a deal made before a lockout. Because neither side was prepared to offer a deal that the other side would accept, at that time. Nor were they willing to accept the deals that were on the table at that point.
- MJL

So what the (frank) are you talking about that "the PA would have accepted a reasonable offer from the Owners in October?"

Ah yes, the benefit of hindsight!

The funny thing is that the PA would have been a half billion ahead of where they are now WITHOUT ANY of the associated damage to HRR, fan resentment and apathy had they accepted the offer in October. Many would argue that a half billion dollars, not to mention the dozens of ended careers is worth more than the ground they've made on other issues.

It's pretty safe to say that the PA was still resentful from the previous CBA (despite their salaries increasing by 75% and the league making more money than it ever has) and they hired Fehr for a fight, not to accept an offer in October.

AGAIN. Even if the League/Owners made a "reasonable" offer in October, the PA would have be surprised, but still held out for more because that's what they hired Fehr to do.
- As_I_See_It

The players would've been a half billion ahead, even more, if the NHL made the offer they recently made back in October. That is why I think it would have led to a quick deal. There wouldn't be a fight if there wasn't a need for one.

So what the (frank) are you talking about that "the PA would have accepted a reasonable offer from the Owners in October?"
- As_I_See_It

I feel like I'm trapped in the Twilight Zone...

So what the (frank) are you talking about that "the PA would have accepted a reasonable offer from the Owners in October?"
- As_I_See_It

It was self explanatory. If the NHL had made the offer they recently made back in October. It would have led to a quick deal in my opinion. With no games lost.

A car salesman also doesn't make an insulting offer at the start of negotiations, ensuring that the other side is pissed off and unwilling to compromise, especially when there is a history of pure hate on both sides. There was always going to be some sort of lockout and the NHL has done everything that the NBA did in their negotiations, the only difference is that the players didn't blink or disintergrate like they did in 04. Fehr's only doing what he was paid millions like Bettman to do, get the best deal possible and keep the PA together through the process. Both sides are going to win and lose with this deal and that generally makes for a good deal if both sides think they gave up too much.
- DariusKnight

Problem is the PA did blink. The owners got the 50/50 split. Negotiating over things like contract length is nothing, and the players still lost that battle too

Problem is the PA did blink. The owners got the 50/50 split. Negotiating over things like contract length is nothing, and the players still lost that battle too
- Cheeseballin

The players were always going to lose. It was just a question of how much.

I feel like I'm trapped in the Twilight Zone...
- Flyfreaky

Love that show. Rod Serling

That arguement/point goes for both sides.
- Gunslinger

Not really. The League/Owners wanted to start negotiations over a year ago and the Fehr/PA only submitted their first HALF PROPOSAL in what, November?

Problem is the PA did blink. The owners got the 50/50 split. Negotiating over things like contract length is nothing, and the players still lost that battle too
- Cheeseballin

That means nothing. Just like last CBA the owners got their Cap yet still lost.

Both sides blinked on this one. Hard to say who won or lost when the battle is still going on...

Not really. The League/Owners wanted to start negotiations over a year ago and the Fehr/PA only submitted their first HALF PROPOSAL in what, November?
- As_I_See_It

I can fly. Spread the word.

Not really. The League/Owners wanted to start negotiations over a year ago and the Fehr/PA only submitted their first HALF PROPOSAL in what, November?
- As_I_See_It

shortage of napkins...

The players were always going to lose. It was just a question of how much.
- MJL

Yea exactly. Thats why I dont understand how people can think the PA has won anything on the owners.