LET'S GO FLYERS!!! CLAP! ~ CLAP! ~ CLAP!CLAP!CLAP!!!



LET'S GO FLYERS!!! CLAP! ~ CLAP! ~ CLAP!CLAP!CLAP!!!



LET'S GO FLYERS!!! CLAP! ~ CLAP! ~ CLAP!CLAP!CLAP!!!
- ggunky

This never gets old

I don't have a problem with drafting the best available player regardless of position. I did a lengthy blog about drafting goalies and D-men but the bottom line of it was that you are about equally likely to find a future star D or G beyond the first round as you are by using your first pick to "draft by organizational need".

In 1995, the Flyers used their first-round pick to take Brian Boucher. In 1997, they didn't have a first-round pick but used their first selection (2nd round) to take Jean-Marc Pelletier. In 1999, they used their first-round pick to take Maxime Ouellet. Oh, and Antero Niittymäki was a sixth rounder in 1998.

Which top goalie prospect ended up being the team's long-term solution in goal? None of them.

Which one ended being the most accomplished goalie? It's a toss-up between Boucher and Niittymäki, with the edge to Boosh for NHL accomplishments but a clear edge to Niittymäki when you weigh all of his other accolades in international play, the AHL and Finland.

The Flyers have also expended three first-round picks (Woywitka, Pitkänen, Sbisa) on defensemen since 2001 and, since the last lockout, have drafted mainly D-men and goalies with 2nd round picks when they'd have them to use: Ratchuk and Bodrov in 2006, Marshall in 2007, goaltender Stolarz in 2012.

When they haven't had 2nd round picks (which is most years, it seems) the Flyers have more often than not used their third round picks on defenseman or goalie: just looking at drafts since the last lockout that includes D-men like Bartulis, Bourdon, Bertilsson and most recently Gostisbehere and goalies Morrison and DeSerres.

So it's NOT that the Flyers don't draft plenty of D and G with fairly early picks, it's that they have had trouble nurturing them through to the NHL level.
- bmeltzer

Or just plain gotten lucky and draft a player that is a much better player then the scouting suggests. What round was Shea Weber and Nik Lidstrom drafted in? Zdeno Chara?

there has to be a better mechanism for addressing this issue. on this i'm sure we agree.
- isaiah520

Like Bill said, they have been taking defenseman and goaltenders after the first round. At some point they will get some good defensive prospects. Scouts are already high on Gostisbehere.

and there is the crux of the problem
- isaiah520

Well, I have no issue with a win now philosophy. I'd rather be aggressive than be David Poile, who drafts and develops great defensemen by the barrel, and then gets cold feet and usually avoids the big move to push his team over the top. He did it in Washington and Nashville for years.

I have a hard time blaming Holmgren for the injuries, as we all know the picture on defense would be a lot different had Pronger not gotten hurt-and saying an injury was to be expected is bunk-Pronger's never had injury issues like he had in his time as a Flyer.

Ideally, the Flyers would be more patient with some of their kids and let them develop. Hell, I'm all for sending Laughton back to Oshawa on the next flight. But considering the success they have had, I understand what they're doing and rather than constantly complain about it, I'm going to enjoy the success.

Bill, this is an org fail and it needs to be addressed at the scouting level. any reason we can't "steal" some of these guys that have a good track record uncovering dmen?
- isaiah520

I'd like to see what these track records are.

Or just plain gotten lucky and draft a player that is a much better player then the scouting suggests. What round was Shea Weber and Nik Lidstrom drafted in? Zdeno Chara?
- MJL

Weber: 49th overall
Lidstrom: 53rd overall
Chara: 56th overall

Or just plain gotten lucky and draft a player that is a much better player then the scouting suggests. What round was Shea Weber and Nik Lidstrom drafted in? Zdeno Chara?
- MJL

Luck is a bigger part of drafting then people want to believe, IMO. Take 2006 for instance: the Flyers had Trevor Lewis (drafted 17th overall by LA) and Bobby Sanguinetti (21st by NYR) ranked AHEAD of Claude Giroux. We got lucky the former two weren't on the board or this Flyers team might look 1000x different right now.

well Homer signed him, right?
- vejim

Yea, how long ago? Pretty good signing if you ask me.

Let's assume both Couturier and Hamilton max out their potential. While it's still harder to find a top-pairing D than a forward, it's not exactly like Selke Trophy caliber centers who also have Couturier's hands around the net are a dime a dozen.

Couturier is off to a slow start this season; though I thought he settled in during Jersey game after his rough first shift. Actually, I think that was one of the few positives from the NJ game. But people are pretty much down on everyone with the tough start.

Couturier's upside and typical defensive play level are exactly the same as they were all along. Three games doesn't change that.
- bmeltzer

FWIW, none of my comments today are a critique based on Cout's recent play. i've been pretty consistent since draft day about my concern about the flyers' D issues. Couts is a good young plyr and i'm glad he's a flyer. i just wanted hamilton more.

there has to be a better mechanism for addressing this issue. on this i'm sure we agree.
- isaiah520

What is that better mechanism? Use every pick on a defenseman?

Pronger, Timonen, and Carle, Coburn, and Meszaros was a pretty solid defense. Real easy to sit back after the fact and Monday mornng QB. Look at the defenseman that Holmgren has added in his tenure. Timonen, Coburn, Meszaros, Carle, Pronger, Grossmann. Seems like he knows how to add defenseman.
- MJL

but that's just it- i pointed these issues out beforehand

Yea, how long ago? Pretty good signing if you ask me.
- MJL

I agree, so why the need for 3 more young centers?

FWIW, none of my comments today are a critique based on Cout's recent play. i've been pretty consistent since draft day about my concern about the flyers' D issues. Couts is a good young plyr and i'm glad he's a flyer. i just wanted hamilton more.
- isaiah520

Ill be honest... When Couts didnt go 3rd, I thought he would go fourth, when he didnt go fourth I though he would go fifth, when he didnt go fifth, etc.

So when the 8th pick came up.. I saw his name and Hamilton's name. I had seen more of Hamilton than Couts, but I with all of the hoopla over Couts from the year before and, hell, even with a bad start and mono he was the top scoring (ppg) player in CHL, I was excited. I figured right then they had a win/win on their hands. Today I still think its the same.

I agree, so why the need for 3 more young centers?
- vejim

honestly? Because they develop much much faster than d-men, and, if need be, you can move them for established d-men.

honestly? Because they develop much much faster than d-men, and, if need be, you can move them for established d-men.
- jak521

but it has not worked for Homer, yet?

Well, I have no issue with a win now philosophy. I'd rather be aggressive than be David Poile, who drafts and develops great defensemen by the barrel, and then gets cold feet and usually avoids the big move to push his team over the top. He did it in Washington and Nashville for years.

I have a hard time blaming Holmgren for the injuries, as we all know the picture on defense would be a lot different had Pronger not gotten hurt-and saying an injury was to be expected is bunk-Pronger's never had injury issues like he had in his time as a Flyer.

Ideally, the Flyers would be more patient with some of their kids and let them develop. Hell, I'm all for sending Laughton back to Oshawa on the next flight. But considering the success they have had, I understand what they're doing and rather than constantly complain about it, I'm going to enjoy the success.
- Jsaquella

when there a chronic issues like on D and in goal, i'd prefer a new approach...like the one that was promised after clarke resigned

Here's the blog I did last summer with a very lengthy breakdown of which NHL defensemen were drafted in particular phases of the draft (or not drafted at all).

http://www.hockeybuzz.com...ost_id=44716#.UQFH5GewfQg

Methodology: I made a list of 152 defensemen who played in the NHL last year (basically equivalent to a top 5 for every team, but some teams have 6 D represented). Players are listed by their draft round, overall selection number and draft year. Undrafted defensemen are listed alphabetically by surname.

FIRST ROUND (54)
Roman Hamrlik – 1/1 1992
Chris Phillips – 1/1 1996
Erik Johnson – 1/1 2006
Chris Pronger – 1/2 1993
Drew Doughty – 1/2 2008
Victor Hedman- 1/2 2009
Brad Stuart – 1/3 1998
Jay Bouwmeester – 1/3 2002
Jack Johnson – 1/3 2005
Zach Bogosian – 1/3 2008
Erik Gudbranson – 1/3 2010
Bryan Allen – 1/4 1998
Rostislav Klesla – 1/4 2000
Joni Pitkanen – 1/4 2002
Alex Pietrangelo – 1/4 2008
Adam Larsson – 1/4 2011
Eric Brewer – 1/5 1997
Ryan Whitney – 1/5 2002
Karl Alzner – 1/5 2007
Luke Schenn – 1/5 2008
Oliver Ekman-Larsson – 1/6 2009
Ryan Suter – 1/7 2003
Braydon Coburn – 1/8 2003
Dion Phaneuf – 1/9 2003
Ladislav Smid – 1/9 2004
Brian Lee – 1/9 2005
Jared Cowen – 1/9 2009
Keaton Ellerby – 1/10 2007
Dan Hamhuis – 1/12 2001
Marc Staal – 1/12 2005
Ryan McDonagh – 1/12 2007
Tyler Myers – 1/12 2008
Cam Fowler – 1/12 2010
Sergei Gonchar— 1/14 1992
Brent Seabrook - 1/14 2003
Kevin Shattenkirk – 1/14 2007
Dmitry Kulikov – 1/14 2009
Erik Karlsson – 1/15 2008
Nick Leddy— 1/16 2009
Barret Jackman – 1/17 1999
Carlo Colaiacovo – 1/17 2001
Jake Gardiner – 1/17 2008
Brooks Orpik – 1/18 2000
Luca Sbisa – 1/19 2008
Brent Burns – 1/20 2003
Michael Del Zotto- 1/20 2008
Anton Volchenkov – 1/21 2000
Mark Stuart— 1/21 2003
Scott Hannan – 1/23 1997
Tim Gleason – 1/23 2001
Andrej Meszaros – 1/23 2004
John Carlson – 1/27 2008
Matt Niskanen – 1/28 2005
Niklas Kronwall – 1/29 2000

SECOND ROUND (22)
Slava Voynov – 2/32 2008
Marc-Edouard Vlasic – 2/35 2005
Kevin Klein – 2/37 2003
Justin Faulk – 2/37 2010
Roman Josi – 2/38 2008
Fedor Tyutin – 2/40 2001
Trevor Daley – 2/43 2002
P.K. Subban – 2/43 2007
Jordan Leopold – 2/44 1999
Matt Greene – 2/44 2002
Jeff Petry – 2/45 2006
Matt Carle – 2/47 2003
Henrik Tallinder – 2/49 1997
Shea Weber – 2/49 2003
Travis Hamonic – 2/53 2008
Duncan Keith – 2/54 2002
Adam McQuaid – 2/55 2005
Nicklas Grossmann – 2/56 2004
Johnny Boychuk – 2/61 2002
Alex Goligoski – 2/61 2004
Paul Martin – 2/62 2000
Jamie McBain – 2/63 2006


THIRD ROUND (11)
Nicklas Lidstrom – 3/53 1989
Zdeno Chara – 3/56 1996
Kris Letang – 3/62 2005
Sheldon Souray – 3/71 1994
Andrej Sekera – 3/71 2004
Francois Beauchemin – 3/75 1998
Ryan O’Byrne – 3/79 2003
Cody Franson – 3/79 2005
Jay Harrison – 3/82 2001
Aaron Johnson – 3/85 2001
Alex Edler – 3/91 2001

FOURTH ROUND (13)
Joe Corvo – 4/83 1997
Toni Lydman – 4/89 1996
Chris Butler – 4/96 2005
Michal Rozival – 4/105 1996
Keith Yandle – 4/105 2005
Christian Ehrhoff – 4/106 2001
Jan Hejda— 4/106 2003
Niklas Hjalmarsson – 4/108 2005
TJ Brodie – 4/114 2008
Lubomir Visnovsky- 4/118 2000
Corey Potter – 4/122 2003
Tom Gilbert – 4/129 2002
Kyle Quincey – 4/132 2003

FIFTH ROUND OR LATER (41)
Jaroslav Spacek – 5/117 1998
Rob Scuderi – 5/134 1998
Nikita Nikitin – 5/136 2004
Bryce Salvador – 6/138 1994
Philip Larsen – 5/149 2008
Kevin Bieksa – 5/151 2001
Brett Clark – 6/154 1996
Mark Fayne – 5/155 2005
Brian Campbell – 6/156 1997
James Wisniewski – 5/156 2002
Jared Spurgeon – 6/158 2008
John-Michael Liles – 5/159 2000
Andrew MacDonald – 6/160 2006
Stephane Robidas – 7/164 1995
Dennis Seidenberg – 6/172 2001
Roman Polak – 6/180 2004
Bruno Gervais – 6/182 2003
Marek Zidlicky – 6/176 2001
Pavel Kubina – 7/179 1996
Jason Demers – 7/186 2008
Ian White – 6/191 2002
Filip Kuba – 8/192 1995
Derek Engelland – 6/194 2000
Carl Gunnarsson – 7/194 2007
Willie Mitchell – 8/199 1996
Tomas Kaberle – 8/204 1996
Hal Gill – 8/207 1993
Andrew Ference – 8/208 1997
Anton Stralman – 7/216 2005
Johnny Oduya – 7/221 2001
Sami Salo – 9/239 1996
Tobias Enstrom - 8/239 2003
Douglas Murray – 8/241 1999
Milan Jurcina – 8/241 2001
Dennis Wideman- 8/241 2002
Dustin Byfuglien – 8/245 2003
Kimmo Timonen - 10/250 1993
Shane O’Brien— 8/250 2003
Mark Streit – 9/262 2004
Grant Clitsome – 9/271 2004
Jonathan Ericsson – 9/291 2002

UNDRAFTED (11)
Marc-Andre Bergeron
Francis Bouillon
Dan Boyle
Jason Garrison
Matt Gilroy
Mark Giordano
Dan Girardi
Josh Gorges
Andy Greene
Mike Weaver
Ryan Wilson

I agree, so why the need for 3 more young centers?
- vejim

Maybe because Briere's 35 now, and really getting worse as a two way guy and the Flyers have been toying with moving him to wing the past year or so?

Is it me or does Laughton seem to be the only one busting ass out there every shift?

I'd like to see what these track records are.
- MJL

get your crack staff on the case

So you think its impossible to take positives from a loss?
- jak521

I find it impossible that the fate of the Flyers is dependent on if MJL sees certain things.

when there a chronic issues like on D and in goal, i'd prefer a new approach...like the one that was promised after clarke resigned
- isaiah520

I bet you felt that the apologies from the owners when the lockout ended were sincere, too.

Actually, the Flyers have been different under Holmgren than Clarke. They have been less willing to trade young players for veteran quick fixes. You just wish they'd draft positionally, rather than take the best guy on their board

Boy, outside the first line nothing to really instill fear in the rangers.
It's either going to be really rough and a blow out or really right and low scoring.

Is it me or does Laughton seem to be the only one busting ass out there every shift?
- Flyers_1488

keep Laughton and trade Schenn...Homer should get a good D man for Schenn and Homers favorite, a second rounder

but it has not worked for Homer, yet?
- vejim

Has it worked for David Poile? He drafts a ton of great defensemen and develops them very well. He's been an NHL GM for decades.

He's had one team get to a Stanley Cup final in all that time, and it got swept.