You didn't get the joke...
- As_I_See_It

Im sorry its late and im just being dumb. Can you forgive me??

Kessel and Lupul have not led this team anywhere near 9th place. Please accept reality if you want to have any form of credibility.
- systemtool

You honestly believe that if the Leafs are going to sign Lupul and Kessel, they're just going to sit around and do nothing else after that? Fact is, by keeping those guys, it's clear that their plan is to go forward and continue adding guys through trade and free agency to compliment those guys. That means guys like Luongo (when the price is low enough) and UFAs if and when they become available. It's a series of events that occurs once he decides those are the guys he's going to build around.

Nonis plans on keeping those guys so he can make a push for the playoffs and that means 9th place if they miss out and a 1st round exit if they make it in. Nonis isn't going to keep Lupul and Kessel and then just hope his team tanks. It's one or the other, not both.

There seems to be two arguements here for trading Kessel. One is that he be traded so the team could tank.

The other is because he wont be worth a big raise.

Are you argueing a case for both or one of the two?
- systemtool

It wasn't about tanking, but that's a plus by moving Kessel. It was more about him walking for 0 or overpaying to resign him.

With the cap going down, I'm not so sure about that. He doesn't play in a vacuum in Toronto. All the problems Leafs fans have with him are known throughout the league.

On the other hand, GMs do stupid things during free agency.
- Jeffmt

There are lots of teams that do it every single year. Just the fact he could be a UFA means that he could have three or four teams bidding for him and that naturally increases the salary.

[quote=systemtool]Kessel and Lupul have not led this team anywhere near 9th place. Please accept reality if you want to have any form of credibility.

If you want any form of credibility, stop believing that the Leafs are going to sign Lupul and Kessel, just sit around and do nothing else. Fact is, by keeping those guys, it's clear that their plan is to go forward and continue adding guys through trade and free agency to compliment those guys. That means guys like Luongo (when the price is low enough) and UFAs if and when they become available.

Do you honestly believe Nonis is going to sign Lupul and then attempt to keep Kessel but then just sit on his hands from there? No. It's a series of events that occurs once he decides those are the guys he's going to build around.

Nonis plans on keeping those guys so he can make a push for the playoffs and that means 9th place if they miss out and a 1st round exit if they make it in. Nonis isn't going to keep Lupul and Kessel and then just hope his team tanks. It's one or the other, not both.
- Two_For_Truth

Nonis has no plans on sacrifising the future for now. He has made this clear. This team will still draft, and I have no problem with them making UFA signings. Luongo would be here by now if thats what Nonis wanted.

Furthermore, none of this justifies your claims that Kessel puts this team in a 9th place finish.

What you have to understand here is that the Leafs are one of the few teams that can actually afford to do it. It costs them nothing. People won't disappear. They will support whatever the hell they decide to do. This is what they should be doing for the good of the franchise.

I don't expect Nonis to blow apart the team and rebuild properly. It's pretty clear that he has convinced himself that who he has now is good enough to build around. He's going to be wrong but I know that's the direction he's eventually going in. He made that obvious by keeping Lupul. He's going to keep the guys he has and go from there.

But it doesn't mean it's the right direction and it doesn't mean it's what they should be doing either.
- Two_For_Truth

Getting people into the arena is not now and never has been an issue of concern in Toronto. Ownership knows that they can finish last for several years and still sell out every night. For a team as big as the Leafs, that's not where the money is though. This has become even more of a factor with Bell and Rogers owning the team. Broadcast is everything to these guys. Losing may not have an effect on ticket sales but it does have an effect on viewership. When the Leafs win, more people watch. That's the primary concern.

And yet, if you look at the 1st, 2nd and 3rd overall picks from 2005 until 2012, you'll see a long list of players the Leafs missed out on because they refused to just sink to the bottom.

Would you rather have Kessel or the next Stamkos that pops up down the road?

It's a sacrifice worth making.
- Two_For_Truth

same message year after year.

yawn

It wasn't about tanking, but that's a plus by moving Kessel. It was more about him walking for 0 or overpaying to resign him.
- As_I_See_It

That wont happen. If it comes to that we all agree he should and will be traded.

It wasn't about tanking, but that's a plus by moving Kessel. It was more about him walking for 0 or overpaying to resign him.
- As_I_See_It

The benefits of trading Kessel, Lupul and Phaneuf include; being able to tank which means having a great shot at drafting a legitimate franchise player, getting some high end prospects and multiple picks to add to the mixture, it allows the Leafs to focus on rebuilding rather than making playoff pushes and it saves the Leafs a lot of cap space.

Im sorry its late and im just being dumb. Can you forgive me??
- LEAFSfan28191

You're forgiven.

There was a hilarious post months ago about an Alphabits enema by SofaKingBored that saw a few people banned... Myself included.

Nonis has no plans on sacrifising the future for now. He has made this clear. This team will still draft, and I have no problem with them making UFA signings. Luongo would be here by now if thats what Nonis wanted.

Furthermore, none of this justifies your claims that Kessel puts this team in a 9th place finish.
- systemtool

You aren't getting it.

The fact that Nonis wants to keep Lupul and Kessel means his decisions are for the immediate future rather than just focusing on the long term future. Just because Luongo isn't here yet, doesn't mean he isn't in the plans at a lower price which has always been the case by the way. UFAs and trades for veterans is part of the "win now" mentality that drives them closer and closer to 7th, 8th and 9th place.

same message year after year.

yawn
- Rang

Same crappy Leafs team year after year.

Yawn.

Getting people into the arena is not now and never has been an issue of concern in Toronto. Ownership knows that they can finish last for several years and still sell out every night. For a team as big as the Leafs, that's not where the money is though. This has become even more of a factor with Bell and Rogers owning the team. Broadcast is everything to these guys. Losing may not have an effect on ticket sales but it does have an effect on viewership. When the Leafs win, more people watch. That's the primary concern.
- Jeffmt

If Rogers and Bell are truly motivated by winning, then they will commit to a longer rebuilding process and ensure that the next 10 or 15 years are filled with meaningful playoff appearances rather than 1st round ass kickings. The few years it would take to rebuild the team would be worth it in the long run.

The benefits of trading Kessel, Lupul and Phaneuf include; being able to tank which means having a great shot at drafting a legitimate franchise player, getting some high end prospects and multiple picks to add to the mixture, it allows the Leafs to focus on rebuilding rather than making playoff pushes and it saves the Leafs a lot of cap space.
- Two_For_Truth

This is all wonderful theory, and a lovely debate you have every day. The reality, however, is this - Nonis has already clearly stated he's not tanking. He literally said in his press conference when he got the job, he's continuing the build. He's not trading away the core and starting over. Signing Lupul to an extension was proof of that.

He's not trading Kessel. He's not trading Phaneuf. He's not trading Lupul.

He's not tanking. Period.

Whether you think he should is completely irrelevant. It isn't going to happen.
Wishing won't make it so.

You aren't getting it.

The fact that Nonis wants to keep Lupul and Kessel means his decisions are for the immediate future rather than just focusing on the long term future. Just because Luongo isn't here yet, doesn't mean he isn't in the plans at a lower price which has always been the case by the way. UFAs and trades for veterans is part of the "win now" mentality that drives them closer and closer to 7th, 8th and 9th place.
- Two_For_Truth

His focus is on both. You dont have to void one for the other. Kessel is 25.

Lupul should have walked, but it didnt come at the expense of the future.

Im getting it. I have no problem with the team trying to win now, I have an issue with the team trading future assets to do so, which they are not.

You're forgiven.

There was a hilarious post months ago about an Alphabits enema by SofaKingBored that saw a few people banned... Myself included.
- As_I_See_It

Thank You! and why did i have to miss this dammit.

Same crappy Leafs team year after year.

Yawn.
- Two_For_Truth

Then stop following them.

This is all wonderful theory, and a lovely debate you have every day. The reality, however, is this - Nonis has already clearly stated he's not tanking. He literally said in his press conference when he got the job, he's continuing the build. He's not trading away the core and starting over. Signing Lupul to an extension was proof of that.

He's not trading Kessel. He's not trading Phaneuf. He's not trading Lupul.

He's not tanking. Period.

Whether you think he should is completely irrelevant. It isn't going to happen.
Wishing won't make it so.
- Big_Lightnin

Agreed. He also said he is still going to build through youth and wont be trading them away.

Not tanking is not the same as selling the future to win now. Big difference that some have a hard time understanding.

His focus is on both. You dont have to void one for the other. Kessel is 25.

Lupul should have walked, but it didnt come at the expense of the future.

Im getting it. I have no problem with the team trying to win now, I have an issue with the team trading future assets to do so, which they are not.
- systemtool

They don't have the foundation to try and win now. That's what you don't understand. By keeping Lupul and Kessel, they become the center pieces of the team. That's what the team is built around. Trying to "win now" off that basis is going to end up bringing them right into a low seed, 1st round exit situation.

This is all wonderful theory, and a lovely debate you have every day. The reality, however, is this - Nonis has already clearly stated he's not tanking. He literally said in his press conference when he got the job, he's continuing the build. He's not trading away the core and starting over. Signing Lupul to an extension was proof of that.
- Big_Lightnin

I never said I expected Nonis to blow the team apart. In fact, the day he signed Lupul, his actions spoke louder than his words. It's obvious that his main guys are going to be Lupul and Kessel. Possibly Phaneuf too. Unfortunately, it's a huge miscalculation but that's where he's going.

He's not trading Kessel. He's not trading Phaneuf. He's not trading Lupul.

He's not tanking. Period.

Whether you think he should is completely irrelevant. It isn't going to happen.
Wishing won't make it so.

What he should be doing is relevant because that's what's being discussed. If you don't like it, don't discuss it.

They don't have the foundation to try and win now. That's what you don't understand. By keeping Lupul and Kessel, they become the center pieces of the team. That's what the team is built around. Trying to "win now" off that basis is going to end up bringing them right into a low seed, 1st round exit situation.
- Two_For_Truth

I do understand that. Thats why ive said many times they have a lot of work to do. They can still make shrewd trades and continue drafting. They also have a young team with upside. Kessel, at 25, is one of them.

Just because you call them center pieces, it doesnt mean Nonis agrees. They just happen to be the teams best players at the moment, but there is nothing that says the team wont try to add better, more well rounded leaders if given the chance.

Agreed. He also said he is still going to build through youth and wont be trading them away.
- systemtool

Youth that isn't good enough to build a winner around.

Not tanking is not the same as selling the future to win now. Big difference that some have a hard time understanding.

Not tanking is avoiding what it takes to get this team the players you yourself said they need. Just because they aren't selling the future doesn't mean they are building the team with the right guys. Big difference that you're having a hard time understanding.

This is all wonderful theory, and a lovely debate you have every day. The reality, however, is this - Nonis has already clearly stated he's not tanking. He literally said in his press conference when he got the job, he's continuing the build. He's not trading away the core and starting over. Signing Lupul to an extension was proof of that.

He's not trading Kessel. He's not trading Phaneuf. He's not trading Lupul.

He's not tanking. Period.

Whether you think he should is completely irrelevant. It isn't going to happen.
Wishing won't make it so.
- Big_Lightnin

The initial discussion was about the problem of Phil walking for nothing or having to overpay for him to stay.

Both VERY REAL possibilities. Both VERY BIG problems.

I never said I expected Nonis to blow the team apart. In fact, the day he signed Lupul, his actions spoke louder than his words. It's obvious that his main guys are going to be Lupul and Kessel. Possibly Phaneuf too. Unfortunately, it's a huge miscalculation but that's where he's going.



What he should be doing is relevant because that's what's being discussed. If you don't like it, don't discuss it.
- Two_For_Truth

So why not discuss within the confines of something that might actually happen?

You're on here every day and say the same thing every day.

GIVEN that they are NOT trading Kessel, Lupul, or Phaneuf, what moves do you think they should do?

give that a try, just once.

Alright boys im outta here got School in the am and boy its gonna be a doozy 6 hours of accounting woopy!!! Have a good night boys.