Well, that was an entirely defensible pick. Marshall was rated high and just didn't pan out. At least they tried. Same with Bourdon, though he's been a little slow to develop.
- TheGreat28

Marshall was a better 2nd round pick than Ratchuk and Bodrov, the only other "recent" Flyers 2nd round defenseman picks. Sadly, for some reason, the Flyers can't draft defense. Since drafting Pitkanen 4th overall in 2002, they've drafted 20 defensemen (not counting this past draft). Of those 20, the best were Bourdon (3rd round) and Bartulis (3rd round), and counting Sbisa (1st). All solid NHL-caliber players to an extent, but never the mid-round gem. Then again, they haven't found a forward gem past the first round since Patrick Sharp.

That's another very valid point. Some are labeling Holmgren a failure because he hasn't drafted a defenseman. Just because you pick one, doesn't mean it's going to work out. That point seems to be missing sometimes.
- MJL

Hopefully you are not lumping me into that group. I absolutely do not think Holmgren is a failure. On the contrary, he is a very good GM. I would much rather have him than Clarke.

But as Bill points out...the defense is really in trouble...not just this year but going forward after Kimmo retires or moves on. The cost of acquiring a defensemen has steadily gone up, and teams with the best ones are not letting them go. At some point the only way to get a decent 3-4 guy is to overpay, and that means losing some of that stable of young talented forwards. I think long-term they have to rethink the strategy of only drafting top-notch forwards, 3rd line energy guys and grinders (which can be easily and cheaply added through FA) and lower ranking d prospects.

So what you're saying is that with Giroux, Schenn and Briere up the middle (average age of about 25) what we needed was a third line center when top three defenseman had a cumulative age approaching 100?
- mayorofangrytown

Excellent point. And drafting Coots since he fell that far was probably the right thing to do...I question the next year even more with Laughton given some of the dmen that we're available.

Rangers trade Rupp to Minnesota, per Bob McKenzie, for Darroll Powe

Marshall was a better 2nd round pick than Ratchuk and Bodrov, the only other "recent" Flyers 2nd round defenseman picks. Sadly, for some reason, the Flyers can't draft defense. Since drafting Pitkanen 4th overall in 2002, they've drafted 20 defensemen (not counting this past draft). Of those 20, the best were Bourdon (3rd round) and Bartulis (3rd round), and counting Sbisa (1st). All solid NHL-caliber players to an extent, but never the mid-round gem. Then again, they haven't found a forward gem past the first round since Patrick Sharp.
- jmatchett

That's a fair point. At some point the organization has to start to question why. Its easy to say "well drafting is a crapshoot" but you can always get better, and as many home runs as they've hit in the first round with Forwards I think they have an opportunity with defense. Maybe they need to go outside the organization for scouts.

That's a fair point. At some point the organization has to start to question why. Its easy to say "well drafting is a crapshoot" but you can always get better, and as many home runs as they've hit in the first round with Forwards I think they have an opportunity with defense. Maybe they need to go outside the organization for scouts.
- TheGreat28

Part of it may well be developmental. Usually the first round forwards spend very little time in the minors, where as the defensemen tend to.

Look at Bourdon. He was viewed as a bust of sorts, but they call him up to the NHL and he plays better than he did as an AHLer.

Hate to see Snider mocked. People who weren't around for the Cups could care less about him and I guess I understand. I remember after a bad call, he ran down from his box to the glass and just screamed at the ref while waving his arms like a nut. This was before the Cups. He made a lot of fans that night. His big mistake was trusting Clarkie too much. A different GM handling Snider's unlimited checkbook might have had better results.
- 2731color

So many annual major direction changes in the organization. I'll use some examples from the Clarke era.

1995-96: The organization is so high on Janne Niinimaa's potential that Clarke refuses to part with his rights when, due to financial problems, Winnipeg is shopping Teemu Selänne for various trade packages. The Flyers were mostly interested in Selänne because he was rumored to be going to the Rangers. But when the Rangers took themselves out of the running over concern about a serious knee injury Selänne had the previous year (funny in hindsight seeing all the years he's played and goals he's scored since then), the Flyers took themselves out, too. He went to Anaheim for Oleg Tverdovsky, Chad Kilger and third round pick.

Following season: The Flyers trade for Paul Coffey to help the power play and to mentor Niinimaa. Niinimaa makes the NHL All-Rookie team.

Year after that: Flyers sour on Niinimaa, trade him straight up to Edmonton for Dan McGillis.

*****

1996: Flyers won't trade Rod Brind'Amour to get Brendan Shanahan.

1997: Flyers WILL break up the original LOD and move an unhappy Brind'Amour to the third line and then to LW so they can throw a boatload of cash to get Chris Gratton.

1998: They move an unhappy Gratton to LW and reinstall Brind'Amour as the second line center. A month later, they reverse the Gratton deal with Tampa, bringing Mikael Renberg back.

2000: They trade Brind'Amour to Carolina for Keith Primeau.

*********

Another example.... In 2000, the organization refused to trade a young Simon Gagne for Ray Bourque, so the Bruins end up trading Bourque to Colorado. In 2002. the Flyers trade a boatload of assets in a panic trade to rent Adam Oates.

where is lasse kukkonen when we need him!!?!

- MrBigglesworth

In Sweden, playing his heart out for a lousy Rögle team .

So many annual major direction changes in the organization. I'll use some examples from the Clarke era.

1995-96: The organization is so high on Janne Niinimaa's potential that Clarke refuses to part with his rights when, due to financial problems, Winnipeg is shopping Teemu Selänne for various trade packages. The Flyers were mostly interested in Selänne because he was rumored to be going to the Rangers. But when the Rangers took themselves out of the running over concern about a serious knee injury Selänne had the previous year (funny in hindsight seeing all the years he's played and goals he's scored since then), the Flyers took themselves out, too. He went to Anaheim for Oleg Tverdovsky, Chad Kilger and third round pick.

Following season: The Flyers trade for Paul Coffey to help the power play and to mentor Niinimaa. Niinimaa makes the NHL All-Rookie team.

Year after that: Flyers sour on Niinimaa, trade him straight up to Edmonton for Dan McGillis.

*****

1996: Flyers won't trade Rod Brind'Amour to get Brendan Shanahan.

1997: Flyers WILL break up the original LOD and move an unhappy Brind'Amour to the third line and then to LW so they can throw a boatload of cash to get Chris Gratton.

1998: They move an unhappy Gratton to LW and reinstall Brind'Amour as the second line center. A month later, they reverse the Gratton deal with Tampa, bringing Mikael Renberg back.

2000: They trade Brind'Amour to Carolina for Keith Primeau.

*********

Another example.... In 2000, the organization refused to trade a young Simon Gagne for Ray Bourque, so the Bruins end up trading Bourque to Colorado. In 2002. the Flyers trade a boatload of assets in a panic trade to rent Adam Oates.
- bmeltzer

Let's be fair, Niinimaa for McGillis wasn't straight up. Clarke got a pick, too


Jesus, it was the pick they used on Jason Beckett....would have been better if they made a striaght up trade

According to the Phantom beats, MAB saw the same doctors in Atlanta that Crosby saw, and Holmgren said he has started light skating.
- Jsaquella

Marc-Andre is a really good guy. I like him a lot, and I hope he gets back and stays healthy for his own sake as well as the team's. But I'd just as soon see him sit out the rest of this season because of all the concussions in a short span.

Marc-Andre is a really good guy. I like him a lot, and I hope he gets back and stays healthy for his own sake as well as the team's. But I'd just as soon see him sit out the rest of this season because of all the concussions in a short span.
- bmeltzer

Agreed 1,000%

I like how pessimism colored with hindsight criticism are considered 'being realistic', as if to imply anybody who isn't retroactively distributing criticism and I-told-you-so's is suffering some kind of delusion.

You know what I think it means to be realistic? Understanding that having a need doesn't necessarily make that solution available, let alone at a reasonable cost. It's knowing that a franchise is always taking risks, and is operating in real-time, not via hindsight. It's knowing that long term solutions can't be scheduled within short term plans. (And it means editing the last sentence out of your rant when you re-read it and find one statement totally redundant)

I won't say those who tend toward more critical outlooks are not being realistic, but to imply anybody who doesn't share this hindsight angst and criticism is being unrealistic is laughably egotistical.

/rant
- BulliesPhan87

Again, hopefully you're not referring to me - I never ever imply nor think that if you don't share my viewpoint that you are wrong. Two sides of a discussion are merely two different opinions...and in most cases the truth is in the middle anyway. And I'm also not as extreme about this defense argument as others.

But to your point about need and supply, this last draft there was ample supply of highly regarded d prospects. They obviously felt stronger about Laughton and Stolarz vs. Maata and Thrower for example. Jsaq's right...debating it isn't going to change it. But I am hoping that they change their strategy going forward.

Bill, in terms of elite hockey athletes, which one ranks more towards the top?

A) Dustin Penner,
or
B) Dustin Byfuglien?

Not in terms of hockey ability, but pure athletic, iron man ability?

So many annual major direction changes in the organization. I'll use some examples from the Clarke era.

1995-96: The organization is so high on Janne Niinimaa's potential that Clarke refuses to part with his rights when, due to financial problems, Winnipeg is shopping Teemu Selänne for various trade packages. The Flyers were mostly interested in Selänne because he was rumored to be going to the Rangers. But when the Rangers took themselves out of the running over concern about a serious knee injury Selänne had the previous year (funny in hindsight seeing all the years he's played and goals he's scored since then), the Flyers took themselves out, too. He went to Anaheim for Oleg Tverdovsky, Chad Kilger and third round pick.

Following season: The Flyers trade for Paul Coffey to help the power play and to mentor Niinimaa. Niinimaa makes the NHL All-Rookie team.

Year after that: Flyers sour on Niinimaa, trade him straight up to Edmonton for Dan McGillis.

*****

1996: Flyers won't trade Rod Brind'Amour to get Brendan Shanahan.

1997: Flyers WILL break up the original LOD and move an unhappy Brind'Amour to the third line and then to LW so they can throw a boatload of cash to get Chris Gratton.

1998: They move an unhappy Gratton to LW and reinstall Brind'Amour as the second line center. A month later, they reverse the Gratton deal with Tampa, bringing Mikael Renberg back.

2000: They trade Brind'Amour to Carolina for Keith Primeau.

*********

Another example.... In 2000, the organization refused to trade a young Simon Gagne for Ray Bourque, so the Bruins end up trading Bourque to Colorado. In 2002. the Flyers trade a boatload of assets in a panic trade to rent Adam Oates.
- bmeltzer

Thank god they didn't trade Gagne.

Rangers trade Rupp to Minnesota, per Bob McKenzie, for Darroll Powe
- Jsaquella

Rangers also get Nick Palmieri in the deal.

Rangers also get Nick Palmieri in the deal.
- Jsaquella

Mike Rupp fetched them Powe and Palmieri? Seems like a lot.

Bill, in terms of elite hockey athletes, which one ranks more towards the top?

A) Dustin Penner,
or
B) Dustin Byfuglien?

Not in terms of hockey ability, but pure athletic, iron man ability?
- Daman

. Two of the finest conditioned men in hockey .

I'll go with Big Buff, because he's never injured himself eating pancakes, was a multi-sport athlete in his youth and has played both forward and D with some success.

So many annual major direction changes in the organization. I'll use some examples from the Clarke era.

1995-96: The organization is so high on Janne Niinimaa's potential that Clarke refuses to part with his rights when, due to financial problems, Winnipeg is shopping Teemu Selänne for various trade packages. The Flyers were mostly interested in Selänne because he was rumored to be going to the Rangers. But when the Rangers took themselves out of the running over concern about a serious knee injury Selänne had the previous year (funny in hindsight seeing all the years he's played and goals he's scored since then), the Flyers took themselves out, too. He went to Anaheim for Oleg Tverdovsky, Chad Kilger and third round pick.

Following season: The Flyers trade for Paul Coffey to help the power play and to mentor Niinimaa. Niinimaa makes the NHL All-Rookie team.

Year after that: Flyers sour on Niinimaa, trade him straight up to Edmonton for Dan McGillis.

*****

1996: Flyers won't trade Rod Brind'Amour to get Brendan Shanahan.

1997: Flyers WILL break up the original LOD and move an unhappy Brind'Amour to the third line and then to LW so they can throw a boatload of cash to get Chris Gratton.

1998: They move an unhappy Gratton to LW and reinstall Brind'Amour as the second line center. A month later, they reverse the Gratton deal with Tampa, bringing Mikael Renberg back.

2000: They trade Brind'Amour to Carolina for Keith Primeau.

*********

Another example.... In 2000, the organization refused to trade a young Simon Gagne for Ray Bourque, so the Bruins end up trading Bourque to Colorado. In 2002. the Flyers trade a boatload of assets in a panic trade to rent Adam Oates.
- bmeltzer

I'll say this, as the years pass his legacy as a player loses no luster but he looks pretty week as a GM.

Rangers trade Rupp to Minnesota, per Bob McKenzie, for Darroll Powe
- Jsaquella

nooooooo i don't want to have to hate powe

Mike Rupp fetched them Powe and Palmieri? Seems like a lot.
- NickTheKid87

Powe's a good fit for them, outside of being some what prone to taking ill-timed penalties.

Rangers also get Nick Palmieri in the deal.
- Jsaquella

how does sather do it?

. Two of the finest conditioned men in hockey .

I'll go with Big Buff, because he's never injured himself eating pancakes, was a multi-sport athlete in his youth and has played both forward and D with some success.
- bmeltzer

I tend to agree, plus I am a big fan of Buff's name.

Regarding pancakes, I had a similar eating injury last year. Time to work on that new year's resolution.

how does sather do it?
- OrangeBlack27

It's not a steal for the Rangers. Rupp's a good guy to have on a team. He's been on Cup winners and he's tough. Palmieri's a tweener, bounces between the NHL & AHL at best.

Thank god they didn't trade Gagne.
- NickTheKid87

I think Bourque could have put them over the top in 2000. They may not have blown the 3 games to 1 series lead against New Jersey and I also think they could have handled Dallas in the Finals. Avoid Game 7 against NJ and you avoid the Stevens hit on Lindros... instead, Lindros may have made his return in the finals against the Stars.

Of course, we'll never know.

But, yes, holding onto Gagne certainly helped the team for a number of years.

((overpays for Bryz))).
- DrMidnite

I'm not at all convinced it's an overpayment. He's been worth every $ this season thus far.