I'm not at all convinced it's an overpayment. He's been worth every $ this season thus far.
- Scoob

his contract is by no means outrageous. 5 million and change cap hit for a workhorse #1 goalie, vezina finalist is market rate. no problem with it all. i think if the deal were 5 years instead of 9 at the same hit, nobody would bat an eye. bryz got on a roll at the end of the year when it mattered and then broke his toe, and never quite got back to the same level. he was their best player against NJ, and has been their best player this year.

he's clearly capable of doing a good job in his role. i'm so sick of the mentality that if he's not getting a 40 save shutout every night, then he sucks (not directed at you, obviously).

I have no idea how Sather pulled that off? Palmieri a throw in? I hope Rupp rots in Minny.. he deserves it after dissing Jagr with the salute in the WC..
- Hextall271

It was Rupp's solitary moment of relevance.

his contract is by no means outrageous. 5 million and change cap hit for a workhorse #1 goalie, vezina finalist is market rate. no problem with it all. i think if the deal were 5 years instead of 9 at the same hit, nobody would bat an eye. bryz got on a roll at the end of the year when it mattered and then broke his toe, and never quite got back to the same level. he was their best player against NJ, and has been their best player this year.

he's clearly capable of doing a good job in his role. i'm so sick of the mentality that if he's not getting a 40 save shutout every night, then he sucks (not directed at you, obviously).
- hammarby31

the goalie thing is such a complex. people just freak out after each good or bad performance and totally lose sight of the big picture. not that many have ever conceptualized the big picture in the first place.

really hoping a similar complex does not emerge as it relates to the team's captaincy.

The Flyers didn't lack foresight in those deals. Unless you think that Holmgren should've predicted Pronger getting a career ending injury. That is revisionist history. The current status of the defense doesn't all of a sudden make those deals bad deals. That's ridiculous.
You're prespective is that this team's window is closing, instead of what it really is. Which is just opening. This team is not a finished product. And nobody beleives that it is. Except maybe the national commentator that forms your opinions. That national commentator is who lacks foresight.
When you make the deals the Flyers made. It requires a number of things. One of them is patience. Some don't have it I guess.
Bryzgalov is 32 years old. Goalies routinely play into their late 30's.
Look at the defenseman that Holmgren has acquired. Pronger, Timonen, Carle, Meszaros, Coburn, Grossmann, Schenn. Seems as though Holmgren knows how to acquire defenseman.
And the Flyers when healthy have plenty of scoring depth. They have young players that need to develop and grow. That again takes patience.
The Statement that Holmgren needs to go back to scouting is off base. He's a solid GM. Give it some time and see what happens.
- MJL

- so let me see. 17 mos ago, pronger is coming off of 3 surgeries - including back and knee injuries-, about to turn 37, says its the toughest season of injuries he's ever had and you think it takes a crystal ball to predict that the end could be near? or that maybe now is when we could make a move? at that time i posted and was criticized for wanting to get a dman at that juncture. why would i post that? how about kimmo fading, and coby/carle both needing contracts in addition to concern about pronger. how could it be revisionist if i expressed concern before what happened?

- no, my perspective is that they will have to sacrifice some precious assets to extract what they need while a window of opp to make it less painful has passed. now, it will require patience with prospects and current young roster plyers...something this org lacks.

- i have opinions based on 40+ yrs of watching the game and taking in many forms of input from various hockey sources. you apparently formed your opinions in a complete vacuum right? i cite a source for a sense of perspective and i'm practically labeled as an automaton. ok.

- patience is the flyers issue, not mine

- Bryz has a bad contract...esp w/ the new CBA rules. bryz isn't marty and if he gets old at 35, we still have 2 more yrs at 5.66 MM. fortunately, we have this season and nxt to determine his fate. a buyout is not off the table.

- homer knows how to acquire dmen? yes, but can he now assemble the right mix of quality and quantity under a more restrictive cap environment. this is not the gutted '06-07 bunch. he's shown lately that he can draft or trade for that #5-7 type plyr. lately, he's failed to land a real difference maker, but we will see. are you willing to move couts to get that playr? unless B schenn's play picks up considerably, that's what it might take.

- the flyers have plenty of guys who had career yrs last yr. they have been subtracting scorers practically every yr since '09 and i believe it has finally caught up to them. jagr had such a synergistic effect on g and harts and i don't expect either of the latter to reach those heights unless they find another guy who can provide that spark. is that guy on the roster? i dunno. i've said time and again that briere is the one guy who can reliably bury chances on this team...esp at crunch time. there's certainly reason to have concern.

- i don't know how anyone reading Bill's accurate assessment on our blue-line wouldn't have a sense of frustration...esp if you were someone who was concerned like i was about where we were headed a yr and a half ago.

his contract is by no means outrageous. 5 million and change cap hit for a workhorse #1 goalie, vezina finalist is market rate. no problem with it all. i think if the deal were 5 years instead of 9 at the same hit, nobody would bat an eye. bryz got on a roll at the end of the year when it mattered and then broke his toe, and never quite got back to the same level. he was their best player against NJ, and has been their best player this year.

he's clearly capable of doing a good job in his role. i'm so sick of the mentality that if he's not getting a 40 save shutout every night, then he sucks (not directed at you, obviously).
- hammarby31

Can't disagree with that. I think mgt intended him to be the missing piece on a contender but now his strong play is getting lost in the shuffle of a mediocre team. This team is looking more like a longer term rebuild than a quick fix. Just hope that Moonbeam keeps his head together while they struggle.

i think if the deal were 5 years instead of 9 at the same hit, nobody would bat an eye.
- hammarby31

Unfortunately, there it is right there.

Given the goalie market that off season 5 and change was also high. They may have thought they were setting the market but there really was no goalie market that season. Too many goalies, not enough spots. IIRC no other goalie got over 2.5

Thought I put this together to get an idea of how many homegrown players (i.e. drafted or signed by the team) certain teams have on their rosters since this seems to be a huge talking point today. I think we could all use a reference.

Flyers homegrown players that have played a game this season:

Sean Couturier (8th, 2011)
Claude Giroux (22nd, 2006)
Scott Laughton (20th, 2012)
Tye McGinn (119th, 2010)
Matt Read (Undrafted)
Zac Rinaldo (178th, 2008)
Eric Wellwood (172nd, 2009)

Total: 7

For sake of brevity lets compare that to some teams with recent success/large markets:

Pens:
Robert Bortuzzo (78th, 2007)
Sidney Crosby (1st, 2005)
Simon Despres (30th, 2009)
MA Fleury (1st, 2003)
Dustin Jeffrey (171st, 2007)
Tyler Kennedy (99th, 2004)
Kris Letang (62nd, 2005)
Ben Lovejoy (Undrafted)
Evgeni Malkin (2nd, 2004)
Brooks Oprik (18th, 2000)
Joe Vitale (195th, 2005)

Total: 11

Rangers:
Ryan Callahan (127th, 2004)
Michael Del Zotto (20th, 2008)
Dan Girardi (Undrafted)
Carl Hagelin (168th, 2007)
Chris Kreider (19th, 2009)
Henrik Lundqvist (205th, 2000)
Marc Staal (12th, 2005)
Derek Stepan (51st, 2008)

Total: 8

Devils:
Martin Brodeur (20th, 1990)
David Clarkson (Undrafted)
Patrik Elias (51st, 1994)
Mark Fayne (155th, 2005)
Stephen Gionta (Undrafted)
Andy Greene (Undrafted)
Adam Henrique (82nd, 2008)
Jacob Josefson (20th, 2009)
Adam Larsson (4th, 2011)
Stefan Matteau (29th, 2012)
Mattias Tedenby (24th, 2008)
Travis Zajac (20th, 2004)

Total: 12

Bruins:
Patrice Bergeron (45th, 2003)
Dougie Hamilton (9th, 2011)
David Krejci (63rd, 2004)
Milan Lucic (50th, 2006)
Lane MacDermid (112th, 2009)
Brad Marchand (71st, 2006)
Tyler Seguin (2nd, 2010)

Total: 7

Kings:
Jonathan Bernier (11th, 2006)
Dustin Brown (13th, 2003)
Kyle Clifford (35th, 2009)
Drew Doughty (2nd, 2008)
Davis Drewiske (Undrafted)
Dwight King (109th, 2007)
Anze Kopitar (11th, 2005)
Trevor Lewis (17th, 2006)
Alec Martinez (95th, 2007)
Jordan Nolan (186th, 2009)
Jonathan Quick (72nd, 2005)
Slava Voynov (32nd, 2008)

Total: 12



Take this info for what it is. I just thought we needed some point of reference.

Brad Marchand (71st, 2006)

- NickTheKid87

for some reason, i REALLY REALLY hate this guy

Thought I put this together to get an idea of how many homegrown players (i.e. drafted or signed by the team) certain teams have on their rosters since this seems to be a huge talking point today. I think we could all use a reference.
- NickTheKid87

good work. you ALWAYS need a point of reference if there's to be any intelligent discussion.

By my count again, and again going by the top 25... 13 of the 25 are on their second team (at least). Drafting is not an exact science. Drafting D-men is even harder to predict. Buying established d-men, via FA or trade, is a very very common way of establishing a blue line presence. Drafting is also another option.. just not as sure of a bet.
- jak521

I'd be curious to look at the top dmen and trace how they were acquired...bet you'd see a more recent trend of homegrown types and that will continue.

edit: nick is a mind reader

I think the biggest problem with drafting defense is that it is based off of the pretty distant future. Its very rare to see a D-man come straight out of the draft and make an impact on an NHL roster.. usually itll take 4-6 years. There are players that are exceptions however. Any who...

For example: Flyers 2011 Draft

They enter the draft with their defense looking like a strong point. They had just traded away Jeff Carter, Mike Richards, Kris Versteeg, Dan Carcillo, Ville Leino walked... On Defense they have Pronger, Timonen, Carle, Meszy, Coburn.

Immediate need? Forward. So they picked possibly the best two way forward in the past few drafts... maybe since Towes.

Now, fast forward to this year. They are without Pronger and Meszy due to injuries, Carle left to go to TB. In a year and a half... all of that has happened. Now, honestly... in 6 months we could have a totally different team/ defense again.
- jak521

That's a fair point. But let's face it, in today's society we're all like that Popeye character - I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today. The problem is...eventually Tuesday is today.

Hopefully they adapt at some point.

for some reason, i REALLY REALLY hate this guy
- eshake

i can give you about ten right now. despise him.

It was Rupp's solitary moment of relevance.
- BulliesPhan87

A little hockey history for you:

Rupp's moment of relevance was when he scored the Stanley Cup winning goal for the New Jersey Devils in 2003.

for some reason, i REALLY REALLY hate this guy
- eshake

I think that means he's doing his job right. He's a bastard.

Pietrangelo is a franchise defenseman and Ekman-Larsson could become one in the near future. They are untouchable. Shattenkirk is rather unlikely to be available but he's signing Priority B for the Blues with Pietrangelo as Priority A.

The price tag on Yandle is very high. I would be willing to do Brayden Schenn and a first-round pick (yes, I know how deep the 2013 draft is) but not Couturier. Unfortunately, Maloney allegedly believes that Yandle (an established All-Star in his prime signed for multiple years to come) is worth something in the ballpark of what Poile was demanding for RFA Weber a year away from UFA status, and that's way too high of a price.
- bmeltzer

I've watched every Blues game, and St. Louis would be crazy to let either Pietrangelo or Shattenkirk go. If Shattenkirk did test free agency, I'd be ecstatic.

A little hockey history for you:

Rupp's moment of relevance was when he scored the Stanley Cup winning goal for the New Jersey Devils in 2003.
- Downeaster

Ok, well yeah, that too. But nobody cares about some loopy trophy

Thought I put this together to get an idea of how many homegrown players (i.e. drafted or signed by the team) certain teams have on their rosters since this seems to be a huge talking point today. I think we could all use a reference.

Flyers homegrown players that have played a game this season:

Sean Couturier (8th, 2011)
Claude Giroux (22nd, 2006)
Scott Laughton (20th, 2012)
Tye McGinn (119th, 2010)
Matt Read (Undrafted)
Zac Rinaldo (178th, 2008)
Eric Wellwood (172nd, 2009)

Total: 7

For sake of brevity lets compare that to some teams with recent success/large markets:

Pens:
Robert Bortuzzo (78th, 2007)
Sidney Crosby (1st, 2005)
Simon Despres (30th, 2009)
MA Fleury (1st, 2003)
Dustin Jeffrey (171st, 2007)
Tyler Kennedy (99th, 2004)
Kris Letang (62nd, 2005)
Ben Lovejoy (Undrafted)
Evgeni Malkin (2nd, 2004)
Brooks Oprik (18th, 2000)
Joe Vitale (195th, 2005)

Total: 11

Rangers:
Ryan Callahan (127th, 2004)
Michael Del Zotto (20th, 2008)
Dan Girardi (Undrafted)
Carl Hagelin (168th, 2007)
Chris Kreider (19th, 2009)
Henrik Lundqvist (205th, 2000)
Marc Staal (12th, 2005)
Derek Stepan (51st, 2008)

Total: 8

Devils:
Martin Brodeur (20th, 1990)
David Clarkson (Undrafted)
Patrik Elias (51st, 1994)
Mark Fayne (155th, 2005)
Stephen Gionta (Undrafted)
Andy Greene (Undrafted)
Adam Henrique (82nd, 2008)
Jacob Josefson (20th, 2009)
Adam Larsson (4th, 2011)
Stefan Matteau (29th, 2012)
Mattias Tedenby (24th, 2008)
Travis Zajac (20th, 2004)

Total: 12

Bruins:
Patrice Bergeron (45th, 2003)
Dougie Hamilton (9th, 2011)
David Krejci (63rd, 2004)
Milan Lucic (50th, 2006)
Lane MacDermid (112th, 2009)
Brad Marchand (71st, 2006)
Tyler Seguin (2nd, 2010)

Total: 7

Kings:
Jonathan Bernier (11th, 2006)
Dustin Brown (13th, 2003)
Kyle Clifford (35th, 2009)
Drew Doughty (2nd, 2008)
Davis Drewiske (Undrafted)
Dwight King (109th, 2007)
Anze Kopitar (11th, 2005)
Trevor Lewis (17th, 2006)
Alec Martinez (95th, 2007)
Jordan Nolan (186th, 2009)
Jonathan Quick (72nd, 2005)
Slava Voynov (32nd, 2008)

Total: 12



Take this info for what it is. I just thought we needed some point of reference.
- NickTheKid87

Thanks for putting this together...I have to catch a plane, but will look at this later. But to be clear, my I'm talking not necessarily about homegrown players, but rather homegrown defensemen. What percentage of the team's defense is homegrown, particularly the stronger teams?

My general point is you can always sign undrafted players or FA like Talbot to fill the high-energy wingers, checking line centers, grinders or fighters. They're relatively cheap. But it is better to get offensive defensemen, top-notch stay at home dmen, and highly-skilled forwards through the draft because demand > supply so the cost is high to acquire them.

Thought I put this together to get an idea of how many homegrown players (i.e. drafted or signed by the team) certain teams have on their rosters since this seems to be a huge talking point today. I think we could all use a reference.

Flyers homegrown players that have played a game this season:


Take this info for what it is. I just thought we needed some point of reference.
- NickTheKid87

One other quick point...compare the Flyer's list to some of those other teams in terms of quality. Lot's of 3/4th liners there. Though, in reality the JVR/Richards/Carter trades are the real reason behind that.

- so let me see. 17 mos ago, pronger is coming off of 3 surgeries - including back and knee injuries-, about to turn 37, says its the toughest season of injuries he's ever had and you think it takes a crystal ball to predict that the end could be near? or that maybe now is when we could make a move? at that time i posted and was criticized for wanting to get a dman at that juncture. why would i post that? how about kimmo fading, and coby/carle both needing contracts in addition to concern about pronger. how could it be revisionist if i expressed concern before what happened?


- isaiah520

None of the injuries were career ending. Pronger was still a true #1 defenseman. It's revisionist is you refuse to look at all the variables involved and just simply label the GM a failure. And then suggest he return back to a scouting position. Pronger would likely still be playing today, and at a high level if it wasn't the eye injury. Meszaros is also a key player missing from the lineup. Put those two on the Flyers defense right now. And I guess the GM is no longer a failure. A lot has happened in those 17 months. But that works both ways. A lot can happen in tne next 17 months. A circumstance that your premise does not take into account.

-
- no, my perspective is that they will have to sacrifice some precious assets to extract what they need while a window of opp to make it less painful has passed. now, it will require patience with prospects and current young roster plyers...something this org lacks.


- isaiah520

Every top team has had to do that in the past. And will again in the future. That's how teams are built. That is how holes are addressed. You trade from a surplus to strengthen a weakness. Since the beginning of time, that is how it works. No GM can draft perfectly, or make all the right decisions, to keep those needs from becoming apparent on an NHL roster.
What window of opportunity has passed? The Richards and Carter window? So if they had gotten the defenseman, then there would be a hole somewhere else. And how would trading any of the current players be any less painful then trading Richards and Carter?

-
- i have opinions based on 40+ yrs of watching the game and taking in many forms of input from various hockey sources. you apparently formed your opinions in a complete vacuum right? i cite a source for a sense of perspective and i'm practically labeled as an automaton. ok.


- isaiah520

My opinions ae formed from my own eyes. I don't listen to someone on the TV or the radio, and take what they say as gospel, and let it form my opinions for me. The source you sighted obviously lacks clarity.

-
- patience is the flyers issue, not mine


- isaiah520

We're 9 games into the 2nd season of a re-tool, and you're labeling the GM a failure.

-
- Bryz has a bad contract...esp w/ the new CBA rules. bryz isn't marty and if he gets old at 35, we still have 2 more yrs at 5.66 MM. fortunately, we have this season and nxt to determine his fate. a buyout is not off the table.


- isaiah520

We talked about this the other day. You're just labeling it a bad contract. If he continues to play as he currently is. It's a great contract. His Cap hit for a very good Goalie, is peanuts. A buyout is certainly not off the table. But as we've seen with the Pronger situation, a lot happens in a short period of time. I'm not going to predict or call a buyout of Bryzgalov essential just yet. Right now, I'm quite happy with his play. And I see no reason why the Flyers should make a change there right now.

-
- homer knows how to acquire dmen? yes, but can he now assemble the right mix of quality and quantity under a more restrictive cap environment. this is not the gutted '06-07 bunch. he's shown lately that he can draft or trade for that #5-7 type plyr. lately, he's failed to land a real difference maker, but we will see. are you willing to move couts to get that playr? unless B schenn's play picks up considerably, that's what it might take.


- isaiah520

The Cap has been a restrictive environment since it was put in, in 2005. All of the defenseman that Holmgren has acquired that I named, have been acquired in that strict Cap environment. Again, I'll bring up the word patience. Pronger got hurt in the beginning of last Season. Those players don't grow on trees. Give the man a chance. And the difference is that I've seen what Holmgren can do, and the players he acquired, are the real proof of that. Why should I doubt him now?

-
- the flyers have plenty of guys who had career yrs last yr. they have been subtracting scorers practically every yr since '09 and i believe it has finally caught up to them. jagr had such a synergistic effect on g and harts and i don't expect either of the latter to reach those heights unless they find another guy who can provide that spark. is that guy on the roster? i dunno. i've said time and again that briere is the one guy who can reliably bury chances on this team...esp at crunch time. there's certainly reason to have concern.


- isaiah520

The career year is a weak argument. You expect young players to grow and improve. That's what the expectations are. That's what trading established players for younger players is all about. keping a player like JAgr around just delays that growth, or delays finding out if the younger players can take that next step and thrive with more responsibility. Again, your perspective seems to be coming from the beleif that this team is a finished product expecting to contend, instead of one that is developing and is a team of the future.

-
- i don't know how anyone reading Bill's accurate assessment on our blue-line wouldn't have a sense of frustration...esp if you were someone who was concerned like i was about where we were headed a yr and a half ago.
- isaiah520

Simply because I know what the situation is. And what patience is needed with the moves the Flyers made. And I'll again ask if you predicted a year and ahlf ago, that Pronger would suffer a career ending injury, and Meszaros would suffer a Achillies injury in the off season? Because they're two key players. Or are you saying that you're the only one with the insight to realize that Kimmo Timonen was getting older?

anyone know when the tdl is?

anyone know when the tdl is?
- mydoglicks

April 3rd

Sounds like Homer should stop drinking?
- 2731color

Not sure if you're joking, but I'm pretty sure Homer is in recovery for alcoholism and has been for years. Or maybe I'm misremembering.

Not sure if you're joking, but I'm pretty sure Homer is in recovery for alcoholism and has been for years. Or maybe I'm misremembering.
- johndewar

If it was a joke it was a poor one because he has been in recovery for years.

Here's some Homegrown defensemen everyone wanted so bad (played at least 1 game this year):

PHI: N/A
PIT: Bortuzzo, Despres, Letang, Lovejoy, Orpik
NJD: Fayne, Greene, Larsson
NYR: Del Zotto, Girardi, Staal
BOS: Hamilton, McQuaid
WAS: Alzner, Carlson, Green, Schultz
CHI: Hjalmarsson, Keith, Seabrook
STL: Cole, Jackman, Pietrangelo, Polak
DET: Ericsson, Kindl, Kronwall, Lashoff, Smith
VAN: Bieksa, Edler, Tanev
LAK: Doughty, Drewiske, Martinez, Voynov
NSH: Blum, Ellis, Josi, Klein, Weber
TBL: Hedman
SJS: Braun, Demers, Murray, Petrecki, Vlasic


Just a few teams. Don't have time for all.

Are any posters here involved with careers that charge by the billable hour?

If so, how do you allocate your HB time?

-Da Man