I'm so torn on what I want them to do. I have accepted the fact this year could be a wash. I'm not as high on B Schenn as everyone else is. I prefer Cooter by a long shot. We need too many pieces for this year to be fixed. I would like to seen them make a few moves because it's fun to talk about. But I'm ready to sit back and ride it out and see how this summer goes, which I think will be interesting

i think it is a realistic take. homer somehow went from having a sufeit of assets to being boxed in where we now will likely have to part with couts and/or a #1 pick to get the guy we need. i will admit that reading Bill's assessment really ticked me off, because i wanted that trade for a dman 2 yrs ago. all of this time between then and now, i've been wary of where we were headed on d.
- isaiah520

Wouldn't trading one of the assets acquired in the Carter and Richards trades be along the lines of doing what you wanted anyhow? Obviously, if they had acquired a defenseman initially in one of those deals, they would not have received the players or picks that they did.

So, what's the rub if they trade one of those assets now for a defenseman?

Another reason why you don't bring 18-year-old defensemen to the NHL. They're still not fully developed when their team control years are up. Then you have to gamble/overpay on their future to not lose them.

With Hainsey coming off the books this summer, they should be able to keep all three long-term, imo.
- bradleyc4

They have no wear near the long term cap issues the flyers have. Then again they also have the same issues the flyers seem to be having right now. Friday was a rough night for me, watching them get taken apart by tampa due to taking awful penalties, only to watch the flyers do the same thing loosing to the caps

carter and gagne are qualify as snipers and last yr we had so many guys who had career yrs, it was iffy to think that they would repeat that.
- isaiah520

I'm not expecting them to have a top offense, never was. I expected Voracek to score at a 20 goal, full season slip, G to pot a pro-rated 30, Simmonds & Read to notch 20-25, Briere about 20-25, Hartnell 30-35, B. Schenn 15-20, Couturier 15, Talbot 10-15 which would be fine without injuries. I'd be open to trading for another socring winger with Hartsy and Simmer our but I wouldn't give up big time assets. I like Jsaq's idea of going after a defenseman like Voynov/Martinez and getting Penner as a throw in.

I'm so torn on what I want them to do. I have accepted the fact this year could be a wash. I'm not as high on B Schenn as everyone else is. I prefer Cooter by a long shot. We need too many pieces for this year to be fixed. I would like to seen them make a few moves because it's fun to talk about. But I'm ready to sit back and ride it out and see how this summer goes, which I think will be interesting
- Deasr1

don't worry. they'll eventually trade schenn in a couple of years, and he'll score the cup winning goal against the flyers in his first season with the new team.

Bill,

it's clear that the flyers lacked foresight when they did the richards/carter reboot. how we bring in a whole slew of young talent and not address the d, i'll never understand.

some commentator - one of the national guys - assessing the flyers prior to last season, didn't understand why we got so young up front and brought in bryz, who would be past his prime when this core reached their peak. i was more concerned w/ the d at that time and reading your summary is a bitter reminder of homer's failure. we all know he tried, but it's not good enuf...he needs to get it done somehow. maybe he should go back to being the scouting director at this point because he's boxed himself into a corner as we are left with a team that is also short of scoring depth as well.
- isaiah520

The Flyers didn't lack foresight in those deals. Unless you think that Holmgren should've predicted Pronger getting a career ending injury. That is revisionist history. The current status of the defense doesn't all of a sudden make those deals bad deals. That's ridiculous.
You're prespective is that this team's window is closing, instead of what it really is. Which is just opening. This team is not a finished product. And nobody beleives that it is. Except maybe the national commentator that forms your opinions. That national commentator is who lacks foresight.
When you make the deals the Flyers made. It requires a number of things. One of them is patience. Some don't have it I guess.
Bryzgalov is 32 years old. Goalies routinely play into their late 30's.
Look at the defenseman that Holmgren has acquired. Pronger, Timonen, Carle, Meszaros, Coburn, Grossmann, Schenn. Seems as though Holmgren knows how to acquire defenseman.
And the Flyers when healthy have plenty of scoring depth. They have young players that need to develop and grow. That again takes patience.
The Statement that Holmgren needs to go back to scouting is off base. He's a solid GM. Give it some time and see what happens.

I think that's looking at things as negatively as possible.

The defense has obviously taken some hits-but at the start of last season the Flyers had a very deep and very solid looking defense. Pronger and Timonen were older, but still playing at high levels. Carle and Coburn were as solid as any 3rd/4th defensemen in the league. Meszaros as a 5th guy was likely the best 5th guy in the league.

Up front, they were looking at guys like Giroux to break out, but also had vets like Briere, Hartnell and Jagr. While players like Voracek and Simmonds were still young, they had both had a couple/few years of NHL experience.

Now, looking at last off season, the Flyers made every effort to fix the need for a number one defenseman. They threw asinine cash at Ryan Suter. They actually signed Weber to an offer sheet. It's not as if they stood pat. They missed out.

As for the current woes, The Flyers have already had 4 of the projected top six miss at least one game this season, with either injury or suspension. Do that with any NHL team and you'd see a team with trouble scoring.

I'm not downplaying issues or saying that everything is going to be fine. But your view is taking the absolute extreme end of the pessimistic side of things.
- Jsaquella

For the most part I agree with you, but I would have preferred that Homer drafted a d-man last year instead of Laughton. Sure, Maata, Finn or Thrower wouldn't help for a few years, but other than Ghost there is absolutely nothing in the pipeline.

As you say, the defense looked completely different at the time of the Richards/Carter trades. But with Pronger/Timmo near the end of their careers I think it would have been prudent to get some A-caliber prospects in the system over the last 12-24 months.

EDIT: Careers

Wouldn't trading one of the assets acquired in the Carter and Richards trades be along the lines of doing what you wanted anyhow? Obviously, if they had acquired a defenseman initially in one of those deals, they would not have received the players or picks that they did.

So, what's the rub if they trade one of those assets now for a defenseman?
- Jsaquella

this is on point

Obviously you haven't seen or read my follow up comments. Penner would be a very short term solution to the team being without Simmonds and Hartnell. I'd be looking to waive or trade Penner as soon as one or both of the injured wingers returns.

Penner's inclusion would be more to entice the Kings to dump his salary than a plan to actually get a scoring line winger
- Jsaquella

I like Penner, but I hope the Flyers focus on getting a Dman (which I know is nearly impossible). I don't think Tye McGinn looks out of place here, and I'm fine with the top line being McGinn-G-Briere. If that line plays well, the other 3 lines look a lot better when Simmonds gets back.

Simmonds - Schenn - Voracek
Talbot - Couturier - Read

Despite the struggles, I think the scoring is there. I just have't been impressed with any of our Dmen except Grossmann and Schenn.

besides briere, i don't see guys with great hands who convert chances...pure goal scorers. maybe G, but i still see him as a guy who'd rather pass.
- isaiah520

How many pure goal scorers do most NHL teams have? One, maybe two. Flyers when healthy have plenty of offensive depth.

They have no wear near the long term cap issues the flyers have. Then again they also have the same issues the flyers seem to be having right now. Friday was a rough night for me, watching them get taken apart by tampa due to taking awful penalties, only to watch the flyers do the same thing loosing to the caps
- flyers4487

They will have long term cap issues soon enough. They have 7 forwards under contract for next year. They have Bogosian, Wheeler, Burmistrov and Little to re-sign this summer as RFAs. They will have to re-sign or replace UFAs Ponikarovsky, Antropov and Hainsey.

As usual, future cap space means that you'll have to re-sign a lot of guys.

I'm so torn on what I want them to do. I have accepted the fact this year could be a wash. I'm not as high on B Schenn as everyone else is. I prefer Cooter by a long shot. We need too many pieces for this year to be fixed. I would like to seen them make a few moves because it's fun to talk about. But I'm ready to sit back and ride it out and see how this summer goes, which I think will be interesting
- Deasr1

I agree with being higher on Cooter but i think one of them may have to go to bring in a good young defenseman. And Cooter will bring back the better return.

carter and gagne are qualify as snipers and last yr we had so many guys who had career yrs, it was iffy to think that they would repeat that.
- isaiah520

It's not unreasonable to expect further growth from young players moving forward in a team's development.

Kind of like Kovalchuk. Although he still puts up points, Kovalchuk isn't the same dynamic player he used to be, but that may be more of a team issue than personal.
- jmatchett

Kovalchuk still puts up good numbers. I think he finished 5th in scoring last year. Regardless, something that we'll start to see happen is that these guys who come in and play when they're 18 or 19 will start to wear out in there early 30s where as guys who start playing in the NHL in their early to mid-20s will be more effective in their mid-30s.

Wouldn't trading one of the assets acquired in the Carter and Richards trades be along the lines of doing what you wanted anyhow? Obviously, if they had acquired a defenseman initially in one of those deals, they would not have received the players or picks that they did.

So, what's the rub if they trade one of those assets now for a defenseman?
- Jsaquella

That's a fair point...way to rational for here

Wouldn't trading one of the assets acquired in the Carter and Richards trades be along the lines of doing what you wanted anyhow? Obviously, if they had acquired a defenseman initially in one of those deals, they would not have received the players or picks that they did.

So, what's the rub if they trade one of those assets now for a defenseman?
- Jsaquella

i could be wrong, but i believe that schenn had more value at that time and i also think that the jvr trade wouldn't have happened if we had traded for the right type of dman to begin with. i don't dislike luke, but i think jvr was worth more and as bill so clearly outlined, luke added to this mix does nothing to address the puck moving issues.

it was like, "well they all want couts for a puck mover- no way. so i'll just move jvr for luke schenn" what?!

I wonder if Nick Leddy will be available this offseason. He will be an RFA, and Chicago will have $22.3 million tied up in the defense before he is resigned.. Either that or maybe try to pry Seabrook away...

i think it is a realistic take. homer somehow went from having a sufeit of assets to being boxed in where we now will likely have to part with couts and/or a #1 pick to get the guy we need. i will admit that reading Bill's assessment really ticked me off, because i wanted that trade for a dman 2 yrs ago. all of this time between then and now, i've been wary of where we were headed on d.
- isaiah520

How is he boxed in? Every team that has ever been developed, has had to make key acquisitions, and trade good assets to acquire some of the peices it's needed. No team is perfect in drafting and filling every position. Your position is extremely pessimistic and lacks understanding in how teams are built.

For the most part I agree with you, but I would have preferred that Homer drafted a d-man last year instead of Laughton. Sure, Maata, Finn or Thrower wouldn't help for a few years, but other than Ghost there is absolutely nothing in the pipeline.

As you say, the defense looked completely different at the time of the Richards/Carter trades. But with Pronger/Timmo near the end of the contracts I think it would have been prudent to get some A-caliber prospects in the system over the last 12-24 months.
- TheGreat28

say Holmgren DID pick a dman this year at that same spot...do you think we'd really have someone that could fix our defensive woes NOW? The Flyers, for better or for worse, have always tried to be as creative as possible to fix immediate issues and team concerns. they saw a hole in the organization less in legit blue chip defensive prospects, but with top tier NHL defenseman. hence the moves to try and land Suter and Weber.

the flyers historically have never developed young dmen for some reason. if someone wants to throw their 2 cents in to why that is, i'm all ears, but i don't know. they can/will, however, make power moves to land big time players (Pronger/Weber). i don't get all these people looking back and complaining about the last 2 drafts....dmen take longer to develop anyway! instead of having the prospects to potentially help in 2 years, the flyers wanted the big guns in the NHL NOW.

1 in hand is worth 2 in the bush, as they say....


it's also funny some of these same people complaining that they haven't drafted D are second guessing the JVR trade.

For the most part I agree with you, but I would have preferred that Homer drafted a d-man last year instead of Laughton. Sure, Maata, Finn or Thrower wouldn't help for a few years, but other than Ghost there is absolutely nothing in the pipeline.

As you say, the defense looked completely different at the time of the Richards/Carter trades. But with Pronger/Timmo near the end of their careers I think it would have been prudent to get some A-caliber prospects in the system over the last 12-24 months.

EDIT: Careers
- TheGreat28

Discussing who they should have drafted is a different matter. There are plenty of highly drafted defensemen that get outperformed by guys taken rounds later.


Also, the pipeline after Gostisbehere isn't empty. In the NCAA ranks they have Mark Alt and Reece Willcox. Willcox is a Freshman who has played solidly Cornell. Alt was acquired from Carolina in the Boucher trade and is seen as a solid prospect.

That also ignores Gustafsson and Manning in the AHL.

It's not unreasonable to expect further growth from young players moving forward in a team's development.
- MJL

we can hope for a change, but i'm not a hopey, changy kinda guy

They will have long term cap issues soon enough. They have 7 forwards under contract for next year. They have Bogosian, Wheeler, Burmistrov and Little to re-sign this summer as RFAs. They will have to re-sign or replace UFAs Ponikarovsky, Antropov and Hainsey.

As usual, future cap space means that you'll have to re-sign a lot of guys.
- Jsaquella

Werent they both rumored being traded from Toronto to the flyers for Eric Lindros way back when?

How is he boxed in? Every team that has ever been developed, has had to make key acquisitions, and trade good assets to acquire some of the peices it's needed. No team is perfect in drafting and filling every position. Your position is extremely pessimistic and lacks understanding in how teams are built.
- MJL

i have total understanding of homer's failure to set us up better on the backline. reality is proof...

Exactly but even so, it's not as bad as some teams in that regard. We were spoiled with Pronger.
- NickTheKid87

If only he wore a full cage, this wouldn't be an issue

If only he wore a full cage, this wouldn't be an issue
- flyers4487

Maybe not but his knees were getting worse and his mobility was becoming an issue too.