all the more reason there needs to be a sense of urgency in the flyers org about making changes in-house to do a better job w/ drftng/dvlpng dmen.
- isaiah520

I agree that they need to do a (much) better job drafting and developing d-men, but there are very few shore bet d-men in drafts. Even when there are, its even more rare to see them come out ready to play at an effective level in the NHL within 3 years.

His point was that, while there a lot of Cup teams that have had some big time defenseman on them, there are also a ton of teams that have had said defensemen and zero Cups.
- NickTheKid87

i get that. i'd rather go with a trend than buck it. besides, they are the most valuable assets to trade as well, so the leverage stays with the owner of these assets for longer. it's a team game, but it's 24/7 about teams needing this type of plyr for a reason.

I agree that they need to do a (much) better job drafting and developing d-men, but there are very few shore bet d-men in drafts. Even when there are, its even more rare to see them come out ready to play at an effective level in the NHL within 3 years.
- jak521

just one or two homegrown guys every so often spares the org a bevy of assets that can be used elsewhere. think back how often that could have made a diff.

Thank you.

Its not as easy as... go get a #1/ win cup.

You need balance. Right now the worst thing the Flyers could do is go into a "go get a #1 dman at all costs" mode. When Meszy gets back our defense will be pretty damn strong with a few interesting depth guys.
- jak521

People also seem to forget some of the other players on the team.

Boston had Chara in 2011. They also had the best goalie in the world playing at a historic clip, as well as one of the deepest forward groups in the league.

Chicago had Duncan Keith in 2010. Niemi also played way above his skill level and Chicago had to get rid of half their team in the offseason (i.e. Ladd, Versteeg, Byfuglien, etc.) because they couldn't have such a deep team with the salary cap in place.

Pittsburgh had Letang in 2009. Not to mention the two best players in the world.

Detroit had Lidstrom in 2008. And also a very deep blueline and top 9 not to mention timely goaltending from Osgood and Hasek.

I don't think anyone on this thread said we are one of the top Cup Contending teams in the league. We are all saying that we have some great pieces for the FUTURE and that some parts are stilling missing. I haven't heard one person on here say that this is a Cup-quality team.
- NickTheKid87

So with no cap room and we can't draft top dmen or goalies as provenfor the last 25 to 35 YEARS how does anyone purpose we get these pieces we All agree we need? No one wants to overpay a little even though everyone knows we would have to so how? That's right let's just sit back and watch us win a round in playoffs then watCh nj or bos or whoever whoop our a$$es year after year after year.

all the more reason there needs to be a sense of urgency in the flyers org about making changes in-house to do a better job w/ drftng/dvlpng dmen.
- isaiah520

I've never disagreed with that. I think they need to do a better job developing guys overall in the minor leagues.

i get that. i'd rather go with a trend than buck it. besides, they are the most valuable assets to trade as well, so the leverage stays with the owner of these assets for longer. it's a team game, but it's 24/7 about teams needing this type of plyr for a reason.
- isaiah520

Say the Flyers had been able to retain Carle last offseason, and Meszy was healthy..

Timonen-Schenn
Meszy-Carle
Cobhorn-Grossmann

You honestly dont believe that defense is capable of winning a cup... only because they dont have a true #1?

Seriously trying to understand...

These fools on here don't understand this. Yes Philly beat Pitt last year but I think it was more of matter that Pitt had a meltdown. That won't happen again. PiTTs core is still young too but these fools think we can win cup with average bryz no top puck moving dman or top winger. Realistic flyer fans as myself see through the smoke and mirrors. Funny how holmgren was swinging for the fences in free agency. Suter weber parise. But this fools think we can be cup contenders. Not to mention nj bos nyr. Joke. These fools will cry when homer makes the move then love it when it works. Just like when they traded Ritchie and carts.
- SMS4016

For someone who's had multiple holes poked in his prior trade propositions, you sure like to call other people here "fools."

just one or two homegrown guys every so often spares the org a bevy of assets that can be used elsewhere. think back how often that could have made a diff.
- isaiah520

That I will agree with 100%

So with no cap room and we can't draft top dmen or goalies as provenfor the last 25 to 35 YEARS how does anyone purpose we get these pieces we All agree we need? No one wants to overpay a little even though everyone knows we would have to so how? That's right let's just sit back and watch us win a round in playoffs then watCh nj or bos or whoever whoop our a$$es year after year after year.
- SMS4016

See there's a difference between overpaying and making a fair trade. Trading Couturier for Tyler Myers is asinine. But trading Brayden Schenn+ for Keith Yandle is understandable.

Who knows what the Flyers will do in upcoming drafts? They've done well with forwards but maybe they start drafting dmen. I'm not going to judge drafts that haven't even happened yet.

Say the Flyers had been able to retain Carle last offseason, and Meszy was healthy..

Timonen-Schenn
Meszy-Carle
Cobhorn-Grossmann

You honestly dont believe that defense is capable of winning a cup... only because they dont have a true #1?

Seriously trying to understand...
- jak521

*waits for Carle sucks comment*

People also seem to forget some of the other players on the team.

Boston had Chara in 2011. They also had the best goalie in the world playing at a historic clip, as well as one of the deepest forward groups in the league.

Chicago had Duncan Keith in 2010. Niemi also played way above his skill level and Chicago had to get rid of half their team in the offseason (i.e. Ladd, Versteeg, Byfuglien, etc.) because they couldn't have such a deep team with the salary cap in place.

Pittsburgh had Letang in 2009. Not to mention the two best players in the world.

Detroit had Lidstrom in 2008. And also a very deep blueline and top 9 not to mention timely goaltending from Osgood and Hasek.
- NickTheKid87

Thats my point.. its easy to point to a team and say, well they had a #1. Why not look at the bigger picture. They had the complete team.

*waits for Carle sucks comment*
- NickTheKid87

Ill be the first to say I wasnt the worlds biggest Carle fan. I saw him as he was. A very good first past d-man who had very good mobility and was able in all zones. Didnt truly excel in one aspect of his game, but played simple relatively mistake free hockey. All in all, he was boring. Thats why people didnt like him. He never threw big hits, took huge clappers, or fought. He was never a beautiful passer. He was just a very solid contributor .

For someone who's had multiple holes poked in his prior trade propositions, you sure like to call other people here "fools."
- Flyskippy

Yes, logic and reason are on holiday.

For the last time you do NOT need a #1 defenseman to win a cup
For example:
Carolina had no one in 2006 and
Pittsburgh had no one in 2009

- BiggE

So, not counting Doughty (who I think has shown he is a #1), there are 2 out of 6 Cup champions without a #1 since the lockout (and by the way, Letang may not be a #1, but he played like it in the Finals).
Anaheim had 2 of them in Pronger and Neidermayer in 2007.
Detroit had Lidstrom in 2008.
Chicago had Keith (and Seabrook) in 2010.
Boston had Chara in 2011.

So no, you don't NEED a #1. But they certainly help, and are certainly worth going after if it doesn't involve totally crippling your team.

Thats my point.. its easy to point to a team and say, well they had a #1. Why not look at the bigger picture. They had the complete team.
- jak521

It's easier time find a little thing in common with Cup winners than it is too see the real reasons: they are all complete teams and they all got hot at the right time. Role players step up, stars play like stars and goalies play better than they usually do. Everything needs to fall into place to win a Cup. It's never as easy as adding a single piece and, poof, there's a Cup.

Ill be the first to say I wasnt the worlds biggest Carle fan. I saw him as he was. A very good first past d-man who had very good mobility and was able in all zones. Didnt truly excel in one aspect of his game, but played simple relatively mistake free hockey. All in all, he was boring. Thats why people didnt like him. He never threw big hits, took huge clappers, or fought. He was never a beautiful passer. He was just a very solid contributor .
- jak521

He turned the puck over a lot too (because of his role) so I just have to figure that our friend here hates him.

Ill be the first to say I wasnt the worlds biggest Carle fan. I saw him as he was. A very good first past d-man who had very good mobility and was able in all zones. Didnt truly excel in one aspect of his game, but played simple relatively mistake free hockey. All in all, he was boring. Thats why people didnt like him. He never threw big hits, took huge clappers, or fought. He was never a beautiful passer. He was just a very solid contributor .
- jak521

could link you to a few OT goals he setup to dispute he's not a beautiful passer, but that would just be nitpicking. miss that guy big time.

He turned the puck over a lot too (because of his role) so I just have to figure that our friend here hates him.
- NickTheKid87

was thinking recently, that i bet people will rag on jake for turning pucks over but it's the same kind of thing as carle, despite different positions. if the puck is on your stick a hell of a lot, you're going to have more opportunities to turn it over. counting stats don't account for these things. especially ones like that that tend to be subjective as is.

i certainly agree with this, but if someone proposed a 1 for 1 swap, couts for OEL, i'd do it.
- isaiah520

I don't believe that was the proposal I was responding to. I think it was 2 forwards plus. Regardless, I would love to see this organization build. Probably a pipe dream with Snider tho. we heard it all before....never again will we trade kids and picks....we have to get back to the grassroots of the teams from the 70's and 80's and build with kids....blah blah blah

Here are some realistic trades to add another puck moving defenseman to the Flyers.
Fedor Tyutin from Columbus. Tyutin is 29 with a cap hit of 4.5 million thru 17-18. He has good mobility, hockey sense and size and can be used in all situations. He will most likely cost a 1st in either 2013 or 2014 or a 2nd in '14 along with a solid D and forward prospect.

Chris Butler from Calgary. Butler is 26, has a cap hit of only 1.25 million and is an RFA at the end of the season. He has decent mobility and hockey sense, doesn't play very physical. He would be an upgrade over Gus and Gervais and would most likely cost a 2nd in 2014 and a mid level prospect.

Ron Hainsey from Winnipeg. Hainsey is 32 and has a cap hit of 4.5 million, he is a UFA at seasons end is most likely going to be traded on or before the deadline. Hainsey while not particularly physical, uses his size well defensively, skates well, and plays a solid, smart game. He will most likely cost 2014's 2nd and a good prospect like Gostisbehere or Cousins.

All of the above are doable deals, that don't give away top young players and make the team better. My preference would be to go for Hainsey, because there are no cap implications beyond this season.

Thoughts??

So, not counting Doughty (who I think has shown he is a #1), there are 2 out of 6 Cup champions without a #1 since the lockout (and by the way, Letang may not be a #1, but he played like it in the Finals).
Anaheim had 2 of them in Pronger and Neidermayer in 2007.
Detroit had Lidstrom in 2008.
Chicago had Keith (and Seabrook) in 2010.
Boston had Chara in 2011.

So no, you don't NEED a #1. But they certainly help, and are certainly worth going after if it doesn't involve totally crippling your team.
- jmatchett

Look back at all the Cup winners and you'll find that most have 1 thing in common: they were all very complete teams, from forwards to defense to goaltending.

That's not to say that a complete team is guaranteed to win a Cup either. Plenty of well-built teams don't win the Cup. Vancouver comes to mind the past few years.

Wait, we're all fools and not realistic like SMS?

He really hit head on the nail on that one.

was thinking recently, that i bet people will rag on jake for turning pucks over but it's the same kind of thing as carle, despite different positions. if the puck is on your stick a hell of a lot, you're going to have more opportunities to turn it over. counting stats don't account for these things. especially ones like that that tend to be subjective as is.
- OrangeBlack27

Stats are stats and people ALWAYS misuse them because they don't add context. They casual fans see his stats and assume he sucks because they don't realize that they are in need of context.

Look back at all the Cup winners and you'll find that most have 1 thing in common: they were all very complete teams, from forwards to defense to goaltending.

That's not to say that a complete team is guaranteed to win a Cup either. Plenty of well-built teams don't win the Cup. Vancouver comes to mind the past few years.
- NickTheKid87

I never said they didn't. I'm just saying that adding a #1 helps a good complete team become an even better complete team, and that since the lockout (not counting LA), 2/3 of Cup Winners have a bona fide #1.