I dont believe in bringing in a guy knowing you will probably have to replace him sooner or later to win a cup. To bring in a guy for "short term", is short sighted imo.

I see no good replacements out there, and would want a fresh face as it is. No Murray or Paddock especially.
- flyer_nutter

As a short term replacement, Murray would be fine. Not looking for him to stay for 3 years, but I want a guy who will instill discipline, break bad habits and stress the need for smart two way play.

Murray, contrary to the mistaken common belief, isn't Jacques Lemaire. There have been offensive players that thrived under his stewardship. Guys like Lindros, LeClair, & Bondra put up very good numbers under Murray and others like Dmitir Khristich and Mike Ridley put up career seasons under him.

Murray is a very adaptable coach, who molds his game plan to what he has on hand.

They do tend to panic against tight checking teams. They panic big time. At the same time it was a guy like Guss that makes that mistake. There is a reason he plays limited minutes.

I think more of what lost them last night was the continous losing of board battles. The Rangers owned them along the wall all night long. It shouldnt have to take a new coach to fix lazyness and a lack of hard work. I dont think it will for what its worth, because a lot of the mistakes are not from the young kids. They have been from veterans all season long.
- flyer_nutter

This season and last, counting the playoffs, they are 4-17-1 vs the Rangers and the Devils, combined.

The Rangers did win a lot of board battles, but the goals were scored when the Flyers made mistakes-bad line changes, picking stupid times to pinch. The only game where Gustafsson has played "limited" minutes was the Washington game when he got dinged up.

I dont believe in bringing in a guy knowing you will probably have to replace him sooner or later to win a cup. To bring in a guy for "short term", is short sighted imo.

I see no good replacements out there, and would want a fresh face as it is. No Murray or Paddock especially.
- flyer_nutter

There's like 20 games left of a shortened Season. It's not easy to make a decision on who you want to Coach the team long term, when you make a decision to fire a Coach mid Season. If they decide to remove Laviolette, bringing in Murray or Paddock to finish the Season, isn't short sighted. It buys some time to make the right decision.

Knuble is 40. Fedetenko is signed to a one year deal. Timonen will probably retire after next Season. So I don't know why you're even mentioning them long term. They're short term players on this team. If not for injuries, Knuble likely wouldn't even be here.
Right now, if they can't trade Briere, he's be a compliance buyout candidate.
Coburn hasn't had a great year, and has been a disappointment overall. But not ready to move on from him.
I'm very disappointed in Talbot for the most part this year. For a veteran, he has made a lot of mistakes. Again last night on the Callahan PP goal he is in the wrong position, losing the backside coverage because he's cheating up ice. But not ready to move on. He's signed to a reasonable deal.
Coburn and Talbot can be much better.
- MJL

Regarding long term I mention them because I do not want them around. They need to be replaced in other words.

A team like Ottawa loses a player, and they can replace him with someone that works hard every night. The Flyers do not have that luxury. Harry Z keeps showing that he is one red bull away from a game misconduct. A guy like Knuble is toast, and keeps taking offensize zone penalties.

Gervais, Guss, Lilja and Foster for the most part have made up the 3rd pairing this whole season.

Every player matters, and the Flyers as an organization need to do a much better job of bringing in players that have work ethic to begin with. To have such players in the system in case of injuries.

I am tired of the team employing guys who you never know how they will play a certain night. That falls on scouting and management imo. I am more annoyed at that, than any coach, identity, or system.

There's like 20 games left of a shortened Season. It's not easy to make a decision on who you want to Coach the team long term, when you make a decision to fire a Coach mid Season. If they decide to remove Laviolette, bringing in Murray or Paddock to finish the Season, isn't short sighted. It buys some time to make the right decision.
- MJL

It also means they can use the remainder of the season to work on some better defensive habits.

They do tend to panic against tight checking teams. They panic big time. At the same time it was a guy like Guss that makes that mistake. There is a reason he plays limited minutes.

I think more of what lost them last night was the continous losing of board battles. The Rangers owned them along the wall all night long. It shouldnt have to take a new coach to fix lazyness and a lack of hard work. I dont think it will for what its worth, because a lot of the mistakes are not from the young kids. They have been from veterans all season long.
- flyer_nutter

Why did Gustafsson do what he did there? Why did Timonen do the same thing right at the start of the 3rd period?
The Rangers didn't own them all night along the wall. It was a pretty evenly played game until the 3rd period.
I agree there have been a lot of veteran mistakes. And there has been some games where the effort was questionable. And slow starts have been an issue. But overall, effort is not the big problem.

They are however playing right now.

That is what I am getting at. Look at a team like Ottawa, that has far less talent. They win on work ethic. First and foremost.

A coach can only do so much when he is given a lineup where any injury is a huge blow, and to give his team that culture of work ethic. A lot of the time most players simply come with that, or they do not.

This falls on Holmgren and scouting staff imo. The organization needs to better identify players who work hard every night. Its those teams, that show that consistency, that win championships.
- flyer_nutter

Ottawa is winning because they're a better Coached team then the Flyers are right now. Holmgren deserves some blame. But there is no doubt that the majority of blame falls on Laviolette's shoulders.

This season and last, counting the playoffs, they are 4-17-1 vs the Rangers and the Devils, combined.

The Rangers did win a lot of board battles, but the goals were scored when the Flyers made mistakes-bad line changes, picking stupid times to pinch. The only game where Gustafsson has played "limited" minutes was the Washington game when he got dinged up.
- Jsaquella

The Flyers failed to score more goals of their own before the 3rd period because they lost a huge amount of board battles. If they go into that 3rd period up a couple goals then the game is different.

I understand that the goals the Flyers gave up last night were because of stupid mistakes.

Against tight checking teams the reason why they lose imo is because of this. Teams like NY and Jersey kill you when you are stupid. Schenn taking himself out of the play, Bryzgalov freezing like a popsicle, Talbot being out of position, and Guss's stupid change are all mistakes that fall strictly on players imo. Not much a coach can do with that kind of stuff.

It also means they can use the remainder of the season to work on some better defensive habits.
- BulliesPhan87

Im simply in the club that thought of this season strictly as an evaluation year.

Its a joke of a season due to the schedule and a large amount of guys not being conditioned.

I'd simply make any major moves in the summer. Start off fresh next season.

Regarding long term I mention them because I do not want them around. They need to be replaced in other words.

A team like Ottawa loses a player, and they can replace him with someone that works hard every night. The Flyers do not have that luxury. Harry Z keeps showing that he is one red bull away from a game misconduct. A guy like Knuble is toast, and keeps taking offensize zone penalties.

Gervais, Guss, Lilja and Foster for the most part have made up the 3rd pairing this whole season.

Every player matters, and the Flyers as an organization need to do a much better job of bringing in players that have work ethic to begin with. To have such players in the system in case of injuries.

I am tired of the team employing guys who you never know how they will play a certain night. That falls on scouting and management imo. I am more annoyed at that, than any coach, identity, or system.
- flyer_nutter

In fairness, Gervais, Lilja, Foster, and Knuble were contingencies, not what they were trying to put on the ice. The situation is bad, but once they whiffed on the big defensemen this summer there weren't many options. There's blame to be put on the management, but it's more a matter of offseason miscalculation than wanting to ice poopty players.

Regarding long term I mention them because I do not want them around. They need to be replaced in other words.

A team like Ottawa loses a player, and they can replace him with someone that works hard every night. The Flyers do not have that luxury. Harry Z keeps showing that he is one red bull away from a game misconduct. A guy like Knuble is toast, and keeps taking offensize zone penalties.

Gervais, Guss, Lilja and Foster for the most part have made up the 3rd pairing this whole season.

Every player matters, and the Flyers as an organization need to do a much better job of bringing in players that have work ethic to begin with. To have such players in the system in case of injuries.

I am tired of the team employing guys who you never know how they will play a certain night. That falls on scouting and management imo. I am more annoyed at that, than any coach, identity, or system.
- flyer_nutter

Other then starting slow in some games, and a few games where the Flyers didn't play with effort. I don't see a huge work ethic issue. I see misdirected effort, because they aren't playing the right way. And they haven't all year. That's on Laviolette. break down the game film. Same thing over and over. same mistakes. This team and especially it's young players need an identity change.

Why did Gustafsson do what he did there? Why did Timonen do the same thing right at the start of the 3rd period?
The Rangers didn't own them all night along the wall. It was a pretty evenly played game until the 3rd period.
I agree there have been a lot of veteran mistakes. And there has been some games where the effort was questionable. And slow starts have been an issue. But overall, effort is not the big problem.
- MJL

I am assuming you are bringing up that fact that it was because Lava told them to attack. Push the pace.

A lot of teams play that way. It requires smart players. Far too much dumb on this team imo.

I blame Lava for a lot of things like slow starts, bad line changes and better holding players accountable.

Im simply in the club that thought of this season strictly as an evaluation year.

Its a joke of a season due to the schedule and a large amount of guys not being conditioned.

I'd simply make any major moves in the summer. Start off fresh next season.
- flyer_nutter

I saw this as possibly a transition year of sorts as well. I don't even blame the abbreviated schedule, they just don't have all the parts they need, and young players need to keep growing. Whether it's in the offseason or sooner, any major move needs to be one with long term considerations.

In fairness, Gervais, Lilja, Foster, and Knuble were contingencies, not what they were trying to put on the ice. The situation is bad, but once they whiffed on the big defensemen this summer there weren't many options. There's blame to be put on the management, but it's more a matter of offseason miscalculation than wanting to ice poopty players.
- BulliesPhan87

Thats why I am really not blaming anyone, or looking for firings.

The current group on the ice, is not anywhere close to what Holmgren wanted when he targeted Weber, Suter and Parise.

The Flyers failed to score more goals of their own before the 3rd period because they lost a huge amount of board battles. If they go into that 3rd period up a couple goals then the game is different.

I understand that the goals the Flyers gave up last night were because of stupid mistakes.

Against tight checking teams the reason why they lose imo is because of this. Teams like NY and Jersey kill you when you are stupid. Schenn taking himself out of the play, Bryzgalov freezing like a popsicle, Talbot being out of position, and Guss's stupid change are all mistakes that fall strictly on players imo. Not much a coach can do with that kind of stuff.
- flyer_nutter

There is plenty a Coach can do with a lot of the mistakes that are being made. A lot of them are because of the Coach.
You're simply not going to get a ton of chances and score a lot of goals when you play the Rangers regardless. And especially not with the way the Flyers play. It wasn't due to losing a huge amount of board battles.

Thats why I am really not blaming anyone, or looking for firings.

The current group on the ice, is not anywhere close to what Holmgren wanted when he targeted Weber, Suter and Parise.
- flyer_nutter

That's really irrelevant. Have to look at how the current team is playing. Not who they didn't get in the off season. A Coaches job is to Coach the players that are on the team. There are a number of NHL teams that are doing more with less.

Thats why I am really not blaming anyone, or looking for firings.

The current group on the ice, is not anywhere close to what Holmgren wanted when he targeted Weber, Suter and Parise.
- flyer_nutter

I think a coaching change might be needed, considering the way the Rangers and Devils have this team utterly solved. But a new coach doesn't instantly cure what ails.

This is definitely not what Holmgren envisioned. Hopefully he's got a strong playbook for this summer.

Other then starting slow in some games, and a few games where the Flyers didn't play with effort. I don't see a huge work ethic issue. I see misdirected effort, because they aren't playing the right way. And they haven't all year. That's on Laviolette. break down the game film. Same thing over and over. same mistakes. This team and especially it's young players need an identity change.
- MJL

That identity change word scares me. The organization had an identity change toward being nicer toward its younger players, and adapting to the new NHL when Stevens took over for Hitch.

Another identity change, when they bring in Lava.

Another change when they send out Richards and Carter.

Another identity change looming, into becoming a more defensive team.

You talk about constants, and the game not being played the right way. I agree with you to an extent. The biggest constant I see is not knowing how a certain player will play a given night. That has been a theme for far too long, and falls on management. That needs to be fixed, and big time.

The Flyers failed to score more goals of their own before the 3rd period because they lost a huge amount of board battles. If they go into that 3rd period up a couple goals then the game is different.

I understand that the goals the Flyers gave up last night were because of stupid mistakes.

Against tight checking teams the reason why they lose imo is because of this. Teams like NY and Jersey kill you when you are stupid. Schenn taking himself out of the play, Bryzgalov freezing like a popsicle, Talbot being out of position, and Guss's stupid change are all mistakes that fall strictly on players imo. Not much a coach can do with that kind of stuff.
- flyer_nutter

If they don't make a bad change late in the first, they're up going into that third period.

When a team consistently plays stupid, I start to look towards the coach. What was the excuse last season, when they weren't using Gus, Gervais or Foster?

The stupid mistakes are born out of the over aggressiveness of the coach. It's 2-2 on the road, and both goals against have come from coverage mistakes and undisciplined play. So rather than being patient and avoiding mistakes, the coach has them pressing and being aggressive...and low and behold, Gustafsson makes a bad pinch, Giroux fails to pick him up and they're behind.

As MJL pointed out earlier today, being smart would have been staying patient and smart, and if need be, turn it up in OT, when you have a point secured and the 4 on 4 gives you more ice to work with.

I am assuming you are bringing up that fact that it was because Lava told them to attack. Push the pace.

A lot of teams play that way. It requires smart players. Far too much dumb on this team imo.

I blame Lava for a lot of things like slow starts, bad line changes and better holding players accountable.
- flyer_nutter

A lot of teams do not play like the Flyers do. I can't name one good team that does. It requires players to be Coached to be smart. To be given a structure in place. It's missing with this team.

That's really irrelevant. Have to look at how the current team is playing. Not who they didn't get in the off season. A Coaches job is to Coach the players that are on the team. There are a number of NHL teams that are doing more with less.
- MJL

This is what's most aggravating to me, seeing other teams succeed with less talent and incomplete rosters, while the Flyers continue to have no solution to certain teams. We can't play four serieseses against the Penguins in the playoffs, we need to be able to compete against defensively tough teams too.

I am assuming you are bringing up that fact that it was because Lava told them to attack. Push the pace.

A lot of teams play that way. It requires smart players. Far too much dumb on this team imo.

I blame Lava for a lot of things like slow starts, bad line changes and better holding players accountable.
- flyer_nutter

If they don't have smart enough players, it's on the coach to do a better job with what is on hand.

If I have the 1987 Oilers, I'm not going to play a neutral zone trap.

That identity change word scares me. The organization had an identity change toward being nicer toward its younger players, and adapting to the new NHL when Stevens took over for Hitch.

Another identity change, when they bring in Lava.

Another change when they send out Richards and Carter.

Another identity change looming, into becoming a more defensive team.

You talk about constants, and the game not being played the right way. I agree with you to an extent. The biggest constant I see is not knowing how a certain player will play a given night. That has been a theme for far too long, and falls on management. That needs to be fixed, and big time.
- flyer_nutter

None of that is the identity I'm talking about. I think there are some holes in the lineup that need to be improved for the long term success of the team. But what is going on right now, is not a player issue. It's not a lack of talent issue.

That's really irrelevant. Have to look at how the current team is playing. Not who they didn't get in the off season. A Coaches job is to Coach the players that are on the team. There are a number of NHL teams that are doing more with less.
- MJL

It is definately relevant in the long term. This team wasnt winning jack poop with the group they had on the back end this season. The Flyers simply cant transition creatively. That starts with the D-core, that needs to be fixed.

If the main reason for firing Lava is because the organization believes they can be better with the group that they currently ice, I can live with that. Frankly, I dont think there is much any coach could do with this group. They need to be improved, starting with the players.

Probably WAY leight/laught, but Staal looks like he'll make a full recovery