I'm gonna maybe be the first to say this... I personally think the organization owes Holmgren one more year if this season does end up tanking and we miss the playoffs. He did what no GM has done post-lockout (the on in 05-06), and that's turn the team into overnight contender after a historic terrible season.

He's lead us to the playoffs every year. He's aggressive and makes deals when he can. This season has just been the culmination of so many factors working against the Flyers.

I still feel that this team can win under Lavi, albeit some roster changes, and Holmgren. Am I alone in this?
- Flyers_V88

I wouldn't be opposed to this at all. It's hard to gauge Holmgren because we do not know how much freedom he has.

Yep. I'm not female doging about him being traded. At the time I thought a second round pick was a fairly good return. I didn't understand the use of the pick that was acquired but that's a different subject.

The pressure was for the Flyers to go out and sign a big name high ticket goaltender, right or wrong that is what they did. It would be nice to have Bob right now to give Bryzgalov a blow here and there. But the biggest plus would be having a legit option if they wanted to pursue the buyout option on Bryz.
- PLindbergh31

2012 2nd Rounder (Anthony Stolarz), 2012 4th Rounder (Taylor Leier) & 2013 4th Rounder

I agree 100%. We are in year two of a pseudo-rebuild. Had they not had so much success last year, this year wouldn't look as bad.
- NickTheKid87

Yeah that second round exit spoiled us all.

http://web.archive.org/web/19961112102516/http://www.nhl.com/

NHL.com from 1996
- Jsaquella

Wow, that's a hot mess!

I'm gonna maybe be the first to say this... I personally think the organization owes Holmgren one more year if this season does end up tanking and we miss the playoffs. He did what no GM has done post-lockout (the on in 05-06), and that's turn the team into overnight contender after a historic terrible season.

He's lead us to the playoffs every year. He's aggressive and makes deals when he can. This season has just been the culmination of so many factors working against the Flyers.

I still feel that this team can win under Lavi, albeit some roster changes, and Holmgren. Am I alone in this?
- Flyers_V88

I'm more forgiving of Holmgren than Laviolette.

I feel that Holmgren is trying to land guys that would better fit Laviolette's system. He offered $200mm in contracts to Weber and Suter. He did let Carle go, but he obviously felt that Weber would land here after losing Suter and didn't want to tread water while paying Carle over $5mm for 6 years.

If you follow writers throughout the NHL, you see every night the Flyers with a scouting presence at at least one, if not two or three NHL games. Homer's trying. Of that I have no doubt.

Again, you make my point. There have been too many opportunities where he has needed to bail the team out. That is the whole point! Lessen the number of times where he needs to stand on his head and carry the team. What do you think happens? Will his SV% go up, or go down? He does have to play better in some cases. But he also pretty much carried the team for stretches this Season. But you want to ignore that. And ignore how the team has played in front of him as a factor.
- MJL

so he's not a buyout candidate? is briere ?

i was just explaining why i thought he was a candidate and why i thought that's what would happen eventually...then a hockey game broke out!

the part about my lack of objectivity or inability to look beyond the surface is so much excuse making. kinda like T J Gorrance thinking a hair cut would help him score goals...

some goalies have similar numbers and seem to make that key save and rise to the occasion. can you objectively say that about bryz? pelle lindburgh played during the highest flying era in NHL history and his #'s in his best seasons are similar to bryz's, yet guys like him made the key saves at crucial moments. at the very least, that's what we need.
- isaiah520

You can't objectively say Bryz or any other goalie can or can't 'make that key save' because it's not an objective standard.

2012 2nd Rounder (Anthony Stolarz), 2012 4th Rounder (Taylor Leier) & 2013 4th Rounder
- nastyflyergirl

The 2013 4th rounder is gone now correct? Did the Flyers have two 4th rounders? I know one was traded for Gagne.

Amazingly the Flyers 4th rounder could be the higher pick.

I wouldn't be opposed to this at all. It's hard to gauge Holmgren because we do not know how much freedom he has.
- PLindbergh31

I agree fully with the point that Snider isn't exactly a "hands-off" owner...

I truly don't think anyone in the NHL really saw this coming for a team like the Flyers. Everyone, for the most part aside from a few, have under-performed terribly. Injuries have killed us. Bryz was razor-sharp and was showing why we got him through the first month and a half, but has cracked with the team's overall inability to play 60 strong minutes, and we have virtually no back-up goalie.

I'm worried that firing Holmgren and Lavi would almost cause the team to move a step backwards with potential new trades and moves aimed at putting the "new" GM's finger-prints on the team...

I think, for better or worse, what we see is what we're gonna get this season and I think it's the right move. No trades now are going to seriously impact the Flyers' chances of making it in, and a coaching change would basically say we've thrown the towel in and will let the new coach do what he can this year and start fresh next year.

I'm gonna maybe be the first to say this... I personally think the organization owes Holmgren one more year if this season does end up tanking and we miss the playoffs. He did what no GM has done post-lockout (the on in 05-06), and that's turn the team into overnight contender after a historic terrible season.

He's lead us to the playoffs every year. He's aggressive and makes deals when he can. This season has just been the culmination of so many factors working against the Flyers.

I still feel that this team can win under Lavi, albeit some roster changes, and Holmgren. Am I alone in this?
- Flyers_V88

when homer hired lavi, he made a comment that his neck was on the line as well. i would evaluate him from that point and come to a decision...

i was just explaining why i thought he was a candidate and why i thought that's what would happen eventually...then a hockey game broke out!

the part about my lack of objectivity or inability to look beyond the surface is so much excuse making. kinda like T J Gorrance thinking a hair cut would help him score goals...

some goalies have similar numbers and seem to make that key save and rise to the occasion. can you objectively say that about bryz? pelle lindburgh played during the highest flying era in NHL history and his #'s in his best seasons are similar to bryz's, yet guys like him made the key saves at crucial moments. at the very least, that's what we need.
- isaiah520

You can't compare Lindbergh and Bryz via statistics. TOTALLY different eras.

And it's not excuses. Earlier today I said I would consider buying Bryz. I've said it multiple times, in fact.

All I am doing is laying all of the facts as well as inferences made via logical observations on the table to get a complete picture of the goalie. I am not supporting or berating him. I am giving sound explanations as to why he may not be living up to expectations. That's all.

You can't objectively say Bryz or any other goalie can or can't 'make that key save' because it's not an objective standard.
- BulliesPhan87

no, the objective std is and .899 sv% this yr and ~.904% overall since he came here.

I agree fully with the point that Snider isn't exactly a "hands-off" owner...

I truly don't think anyone in the NHL really saw this coming for a team like the Flyers. Everyone, for the most part aside from a few, have under-performed terribly. Injuries have killed us. Bryz was razor-sharp and was showing why we got him through the first month and a half, but has cracked with the team's overall inability to play 60 strong minutes, and we have virtually no back-up goalie.

I'm worried that firing Holmgren and Lavi would almost cause the team to move a step backwards with potential new trades and moves aimed at putting the "new" GM's finger-prints on the team...

I think, for better or worse, what we see is what we're gonna get this season and I think it's the right move. No trades now are going to seriously impact the Flyers' chances of making it in, and a coaching change would basically say we've thrown the towel in and will let the new coach do what he can this year and start fresh next year.
- Flyers_V88

I want some stability. Just say Holmgren and Laviolette are fired at seasons end, and Bryz is bought out. Well those are enormous Organizational changes. Starting anew with a Coach/GM/Goaltender.

I would lean towards retaining Laviolette and giving Holmgren a chance to add to the core of the current team, then see where you stand at the end of next season.

The one move I feel that must be made is to move on from Briere. If you can trade him great, take whatever you can get, if not use one of the two buyouts on him.

no, the objective std is and .899 sv% this yr and ~.904% overall since he came here.
- isaiah520

That literally has nothing to do with my post. You were seeking an objective yes or no on a subjective question (that is, can he make the 'key save' or 'rising to the occasion'). Nobody can provide that, not you, nor I, nor any other poster.

I want some stability. Just say Holmgren and Laviolette are fired at seasons end, and Bryz is bought out. Well those are enormous Organizational changes. Starting anew with a Coach/GM/Goaltender.

I would lean towards retaining Laviolette and giving Holmgren a chance to add to the core of the current team, then see where you stand at the end of next season.

The one move I feel that must be made is to move on from Briere. If you can trade him, great take whatever you can get, if not use one of the two buyouts on him.
- PLindbergh31

I'd agree. This is the first we've seen this type of situation in their respective tenures here...

Also, people forget that if we were to buy out Bryz, who are we gonna get and what are we gonna give up? This year hasn't worked out as planned, but there is still a slight change we can right this ship and play to the potential we're able to. Call me crazy, but I still believe Bryz can be our Cup goalie. We're not like most teams where the goalie is expected to steal games for us and put up Vezina numbers. The Flyers, typically, are good enough on paper to win every year. We just need him to get back to the form we saw earlier this season and I guarantee a Cup will come sooner than later.

some goalies have similar numbers and seem to make that key save and rise to the occasion. can you objectively say that about bryz? pelle lindburgh played during the highest flying era in NHL history and his #'s in his best seasons are similar to bryz's, yet guys like him made the key saves at crucial moments. at the very least, that's what we need.
- isaiah520

Put those "some goalies" on this team. In this situation with the way this team plays in front of them. See what happens. Pelle Lindbergh at the time of his death was one of, if not the best goalie in Hockey. That's comparable to Lunqvist of today. Bryzgalov is not Lundqvist and won't be. So that's an irrellevant comparison. Are you saying that Bryzgalov doesn't make key saves at key times, and hasn't this Season? You only have to go back to last night's game to find one. The rebound save he made on a point blank shot. Seeing that the Flyers won the game 3-2, I'd say that was a key save at a crucial moment.

I'd agree. This is the first we've seen this type of situation in their respective tenures here...

Also, people forget that if we were to buy out Bryz, who are we gonna get and what are we gonna give up? This year hasn't worked out as planned, but there is still a slight change we can right this ship and play to the potential we're able to. Call me crazy, but I still believe Bryz can be our Cup goalie. We're not like most teams where the goalie is expected to steal games for us and put up Vezina numbers. The Flyers, typically, are good enough on paper to win every year. We just need him to get back to the form we saw earlier this season and I guarantee a Cup will come sooner than later.
- Flyers_V88

I think the idea of buying Bryzgalov out would be to replace him via free agency. Get a guy for far less years at a lower cap hit who can roughly provide the same level of performance.

so he's not a buyout candidate? is briere ?
- isaiah520

Who decides who is a buyout candidate or not? The fans or Flyers Management? I can tell you who I think is a possibility. But that's as far as it goes. Holmgren and Lukko haven't called me to ask my opinion. But I am available and waiting by the phone

You can't compare Lindbergh and Bryz via statistics. TOTALLY different eras.

And it's not excuses. Earlier today I said I would consider buying Bryz. I've said it multiple times, in fact.

All I am doing is laying all of the facts as well as inferences made via logical observations on the table to get a complete picture of the goalie. I am not supporting or berating him. I am giving sound explanations as to why he may not be living up to expectations. That's all.
- NickTheKid87

pelle faced tougher chances with inferior equipment. just saying...
i saw a lot of excuse making for him last yr and in the end he admitted what most of us were willing to see. this yr, i gave him a clean slate and i've seen his performance deteriorate and Bill's post after the Pens game encapsulates my feelings very well. i'll admit that he is more objective about this team than most others here, including me.
this is his assessment before the season. before anyone was caught up in the disappointment or in any unrealistic expectations:

Making a decision on what to do with Ilya Bryzgalov: buy him out to shed his $5.66 million cap hit or retain him for up to seven additional seasons. By the end of the 2013 season, the choice the Flyers will make will become fairly obvious. In order to remain a Flyer beyond this season, Bryzgalov is going to have to play at a very high sustained level and have a strong playoff on top of it. That may be tough to accomplish with the defensive question marks surrounding the club but we'll see what happens. Bryzgalov did set a new franchise shutout record in March of last season with essentially the same defensive cast -- minus the now-departed Matt Carle -- in front of him.


nobody said it was easy...

I suspect that this is why we are discussing goaltenders, but look at Bob's work of late for the Jackets.

Hind sight is 20/20 but I still wish we could have found a way to keep him. Organizational depth in goal is never a bad thing, and I always felt way more comfortable with Bob in net as a backup than Leights or Boush.

Wow.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=417912

Put those "some goalies" on this team. In this situation with the way this team plays in front of them. See what happens. Pelle Lindbergh at the time of his death was one of, if not the best goalie in Hockey. That's comparable to Lunqvist of today. Bryzgalov is not Lundqvist and won't be. So that's an irrellevant comparison. Are you saying that Bryzgalov doesn't make key saves at key times, and hasn't this Season? You only have to go back to last night's game to find one. The rebound save he made on a point blank shot. Seeing that the Flyers won the game 3-2, I'd say that was a key save at a crucial moment.
- MJL

As Nick pointed out, the expectations for Bryzgalov to perform at the elite level are based on his cap hit. Those two aren't part and parcel of one another. Bryzgalov is a rung below the top level guys in the NHL. That being said, I believe he is good enough to win with provided he have some help in front of him.

That literally has nothing to do with my post. You were seeking an objective yes or no on a subjective question (that is, can he make the 'key save' or 'rising to the occasion'). Nobody can provide that, not you, nor I, nor any other poster.
- BulliesPhan87

you'll have to excuse me...i'm on post #25 or something about this BS...i had the temerity to suggest bryz should be a buyout candidate

I think the idea of buying Bryzgalov out would be to replace him via free agency. Get a guy for far less years at a lower cap hit who can roughly provide the same level of performance.
- PLindbergh31

But who? There is literally only a few guys I would touch from this summer's FA class in net. I can't see Minnesota walking away from Backstrom... Especially with Harding's long-term health. Tim Thomas MAY or MAY NOT be back... And then there is who? I'm not trying to be an bumhole or anything, but seriously look at the market and the potential goalies on the trading-block, and there really aren't that many options.

pelle faced tougher chances with inferior equipment. just saying...
i saw a lot of excuse making for him last yr and in the end he admitted what most of us were willing to see. this yr, i gave him a clean slate and i've seen his performance deteriorate and Bill's post after the Pens game encapsulates my feelings very well. i'll admit that he is more objective about this team than most others here, including me.
this is his assessment before the season. before anyone was caught up in the disappointment or in any unrealistic expectations:

Making a decision on what to do with Ilya Bryzgalov: buy him out to shed his $5.66 million cap hit or retain him for up to seven additional seasons. By the end of the 2013 season, the choice the Flyers will make will become fairly obvious. In order to remain a Flyer beyond this season, Bryzgalov is going to have to play at a very high sustained level and have a strong playoff on top of it. That may be tough to accomplish with the defensive question marks surrounding the club but we'll see what happens. Bryzgalov did set a new franchise shutout record in March of last season with essentially the same defensive cast -- minus the now-departed Matt Carle -- in front of him.


nobody said it was easy...
- isaiah520

Still can't compare 80s players to 10s players.

And I don't disagree with anything Bill said and that quote is totally irrelevant to what I'm even saying.

Hypothetically speaking, do you think Henrik Lundqvist would have won the Vezina last year with this current Flyers team in front of him?

As Nick pointed out, the expectations for Bryzgalov to perform at the elite level are based on his cap hit. Those two aren't part and parcel of one another. Bryzgalov is a rung below the top level guys in the NHL. That being said, I believe he is good enough to win with provided he have some help in front of him.
- PLindbergh31

I agree completely with both you and Nick on this.