hmmm. Just saw an angle where you see Carter kind of kicking his skate towards Rinaldo at the last second.

I'll have to re-assess my position.

I didn't see that last night on the replay.
- Pecafan Fan

Lol.. I was gonna say.. He, at the last second, stick his leg out and his shin/knee makes direct contact with Rinaldos.. lucky he is ok.

I see that a lot of the people who feel that Laviolette should be fired are being attacked by others who are reducing the argument into "It's all Lavy's fault"

This sort of moronic simplemindedness belongs on WIP. Nobody is saying that Laviolette is the only one to blame, or that the situation is all his fault. Those that feel that I or others are making that argument are simply ignoring the bulk of what we've been saying or are just trying to be bumholes.

Peter Laviolette has won a Stanley Cup as a head coach. With the right personnel, his system can be fantastic. However, with the wrong personnel, it can fail miserably. Unfortunately, we've seen a template where Laviolette clung tight to his system and failed, despite losing key personnel that made his system effective in Carolina.

In the case of the Flyers, Laviolette's current team is not suited for the system he wants to run. I will not say that he has made no adjustments. There's been tweaks in the defensive coverage, but they are not big changes, and they have been largely ineffective. It also isn't just a one year thing. The signs have been there for awhile.

One trend for the Flyers the last two seasons has been their inability to beat teams that play tight checking systems, with aggressive forechecking and strict discipline. If that team has good offensive talent on top of that discipline, the Flyers have usually been toast.

People also rip Terry Murray, by pointing to his record with the Phantoms. Let's take a look at the talent level on the Phantoms. When he had Sean Couturier and Bryaden Schenn, those two accounted for 61% of the Phantoms offense. Even with those two, the Phantoms weren't very good.

My view is, Murray(and John Paddock for that matter) have solid records and teaching coaches. Murray has a strong record of instilling discipline in teams and getting them to be better two way players on an individual level. This is a largely young team that needs teaching more than motivation. Murray also isn't a guy married to a system. He can coach high scoring teams(as he did in Washington as well as Philly) and he can coach defense first style teams as he did in Los Angeles.

The season is likely not salvageable. No available coach is likely to come in and go 16-3 and squeak into the playoffs. That's why I want somebody to come in and lay a foundation of discipline, good two way play and to break the bad habits that are forming.

I wouldn't bring either Murray or Paddock in as a permanent replacement. But rather as an interim guy to teach and break bad habits. Then I would cast a wide net for a replacement. That's the other consideration.

Most guys I'd want are locked into jobs and it would cost compensation as well as a multi-year contract to get them now. I want to really shake the tree, not automaticall be locked into a Lindy Ruff or Ted Nolan.

Wit until summer and see if a Jon Cooper, Dallas Eakins or Steve Spott is willing and ready to make a jump to the NHL.
- Jsaquella

The talent level with the Phantoms has pretty much everything to do with Paul Holmgren.

I see that a lot of the people who feel that Laviolette should be fired are being attacked by others who are reducing the argument into "It's all Lavy's fault"

This sort of moronic simplemindedness belongs on WIP. Nobody is saying that Laviolette is the only one to blame, or that the situation is all his fault. Those that feel that I or others are making that argument are simply ignoring the bulk of what we've been saying or are just trying to be bumholes.

Peter Laviolette has won a Stanley Cup as a head coach. With the right personnel, his system can be fantastic. However, with the wrong personnel, it can fail miserably. Unfortunately, we've seen a template where Laviolette clung tight to his system and failed, despite losing key personnel that made his system effective in Carolina.

In the case of the Flyers, Laviolette's current team is not suited for the system he wants to run. I will not say that he has made no adjustments. There's been tweaks in the defensive coverage, but they are not big changes, and they have been largely ineffective. It also isn't just a one year thing. The signs have been there for awhile.

One trend for the Flyers the last two seasons has been their inability to beat teams that play tight checking systems, with aggressive forechecking and strict discipline. If that team has good offensive talent on top of that discipline, the Flyers have usually been toast.

People also rip Terry Murray, by pointing to his record with the Phantoms. Let's take a look at the talent level on the Phantoms. When he had Sean Couturier and Bryaden Schenn, those two accounted for 61% of the Phantoms offense. Even with those two, the Phantoms weren't very good.

My view is, Murray(and John Paddock for that matter) have solid records and teaching coaches. Murray has a strong record of instilling discipline in teams and getting them to be better two way players on an individual level. This is a largely young team that needs teaching more than motivation. Murray also isn't a guy married to a system. He can coach high scoring teams(as he did in Washington as well as Philly) and he can coach defense first style teams as he did in Los Angeles.

The season is likely not salvageable. No available coach is likely to come in and go 16-3 and squeak into the playoffs. That's why I want somebody to come in and lay a foundation of discipline, good two way play and to break the bad habits that are forming.

I wouldn't bring either Murray or Paddock in as a permanent replacement. But rather as an interim guy to teach and break bad habits. Then I would cast a wide net for a replacement. That's the other consideration.

Most guys I'd want are locked into jobs and it would cost compensation as well as a multi-year contract to get them now. I want to really shake the tree, not automaticall be locked into a Lindy Ruff or Ted Nolan.

Wit until summer and see if a Jon Cooper, Dallas Eakins or Steve Spott is willing and ready to make a jump to the NHL.
- Jsaquella

pffffff someone with logic and reason on this board?....get lost

I feel like Homer has set the organization back 5 years and now another rebuild coming?

I feel like Homer has set the organization back 5 years and now another rebuild coming?
- vejim

There's no way for Holmgren to predict Pronger and Meszaros would have been injured so often.

Add these 2 guys to the lineup and the Flyers are a much different team.

Trade Briere and Timonen - get prospects and picks. Buy out Mesz and Bryz in the offseason.

I was debating a couple guys on Facebook last night -- was this year or last year a fluke year for Couturier?
- flyersfan51

This is Couturier's 2nd NHL season and he is 20 years old. It's way to soon to tell.

Trade Briere and Timonen - get prospects and picks. Buy out Mesz and Bryz in the offseason.

I was debating a couple guys on Facebook last night -- was this year or last year a fluke year for Couturier?
- flyersfan51

This stuff cant be serious..

Trade Timonen and Briere and replace them with picks and prospects. Next buy out Meszy and Bryz... You do realize that players need to be replaced.. and in order to replace players, there need to be capable available replacements?

Couts is in his second year.. and is 20. Saying last year or this year is a fluke is just not understanding the game. The term sophomore slump didnt originate over night.

Trade Briere and Timonen - get prospects and picks. Buy out Mesz and Bryz in the offseason.

I was debating a couple guys on Facebook last night -- was this year or last year a fluke year for Couturier?
- flyersfan51

Ill give Mesz a pass...as for bryz i want to wait till the end of next year.

Timmo and briere can go as far as im concerned.

Debating on facebook is like asking a hooker for hugs....

The talent level with the Phantoms has pretty much everything to do with Paul Holmgren.
- PLindbergh31

Way to nitpick.

Yes, the talent level on the Phantoms is Holmgren's fault, but it has little to do with the Flyers. His job is to win the Stanley Cup, not the Calder Cup.

Most of the good young players the Flyers have are on the Flyers or in major junior.

I feel like Homer has set the organization back 5 years and now another rebuild coming?
- vejim

What makes you think another rebuild is coming?

I understand that. You make valid points. I refuse to believe Laviolette is just too stubborn to make the adjustments necessary. There are a lot of undisciplined players on this team. And lots of stupid as well.

Laviolette got this team to a game 6 of the SCF a few years ago. Everyone loves the return for Carter and Richards, so the major difference between that team and this one is Chris Pronger. While Pronger's value can't be understated he's not the difference in being a Cup Finals team and a team that isn't competitive.
- PLindbergh31

I believe it is more than just Pronger. Matt Carle for all his faults is a better dman for Lavy's system than Luke Schenn. I also believe the Flyers never replaced the pure heart and soul work ethic of Laperierre. He set a tone for this team that has not been replaced. I'm just frustrated that Lavy has not properly adjusted his system to better fit the talent of the team. I look at Ottawa, with all the quality players they lost, they are still doing well. Their coach made the necessary adjustments and they continue to compete. I look at Nashville, a team that is always losing top players due to $$, yet Trotz always finds a way to keep them competitive. Missing the playoffs is one thing, looking woefully inept is another. Obviously the players and front office deserve much of the blame, but all in all Laviolette has done a bad job.

Goaltending has to be on the list somewhere. Second unit PP has been dreadful, overall they haven't been bad. 5th in the NHL.
- PLindbergh31

Backup goaltending would be #8.

I like Bryz. With a team in front of him that performs well he's a non-issue.

I feel like Homer has set the organization back 5 years and now another rebuild coming?
- vejim

Why do you feel Holmgren has set the organization back 5 years?

What makes you think another rebuild is coming?
- MJL

defense and goalie

Why do you feel Holmgren has set the organization back 5 years?
- NickTheKid87

the way he has traded and drafted

the way he has traded and drafted
- vejim

Like what trades?

This stuff cant be serious..

Trade Timonen and Briere and replace them with picks and prospects. Next buy out Meszy and Bryz... You do realize that players need to be replaced.. and in order to replace players, there need to be capable available replacements?

Couts is in his second year.. and is 20. Saying last year or this year is a fluke is just not understanding the game. The term sophomore slump didnt originate over night.
- jak521

The same idiots saying Couturier was a fluke his first year are the same idiots that demanded JvR be traded. They're also the ones complaining about JvR being traded

Way to nitpick.

Yes, the talent level on the Phantoms is Holmgren's fault, but it has little to do with the Flyers. His job is to win the Stanley Cup, not the Calder Cup.

Most of the good young players the Flyers have are on the Flyers or in major junior.
- Jsaquella

I agree. Holmgren shouldn't be concerned with the Calder Cup. No one cares who wins that. But he's thrown away a bunch of draft picks trying for quick fixes. When a GM does that it hurts the pipeline.

I'm not blindly defending Laviolette, a person would have to be naive to think he hasn't done a poor job this year. There is a litany of issues with this team. Easiest thing to do is start with the coach.

defense and goalie
- vejim

Doesn't answer the question, nor does it explain why you think a rebuild is coming.

Like what trades?
- NickTheKid87

come on

The same idiots saying Couturier was a fluke his first year are the same idiots that demanded JvR be traded. They're also the ones complaining about JvR being traded
- Jsaquella

We just saw how much not having Luke Schenn in the lineup hurt the Flyers D and everyone still wants JVR back. JVR would have scored 5 goals last night I guess.

There's plenty of talent, but it's a bad mix of personnel and style of play.

Trading guys like Coburn and Meszaros -- as suggested by others -- will only set this team back even further. No panic moves. Just find the right coach, or style of play, and continue to mold the roster. Without another major overhaul of bodies.
- bradleyc4

I agree 100% with you Brad. My biggest fear right now is a panic trade. In a sick way I almost prefer them to just flame out so the Flyers don't move any young pieces in hopes to make a playoff push.

I agree. Holmgren shouldn't be concerned with the Calder Cup. No one cares who wins that. But he's thrown away a bunch of draft picks trying for quick fixes. When a GM does that it hurts the pipeline.

I'm not blindly defending Laviolette, a person would have to be naive to think he hasn't done a poor job this year. There is a litany of issues with this team. Easiest thing to do is start with the coach.
- PLindbergh31

Do you think the current team has enough talent in it's lineup to be a playoff team. And to be a competitive team game in and game out?

come on
- vejim

Richards and Carter? If this is about them...

The same idiots saying Couturier was a fluke his first year are the same idiots that demanded JvR be traded. They're also the ones complaining about JvR being traded
- Jsaquella

There were major reasons for wanting to trade JVR..... Couts should be left to mature..The kid is going to be great one day...I wouldnt give up on him.