Execution is one thing. Simple discipline is another. The Flyers have played hard, but it's been unfocused aggression. That tells me that the tweaks made haven't been working because there's no accountability or discipline instilled.

The teams that are beating the Flyers are doing so largely by being disciplined in their own system. Even last year, when they were a good team in the standings, they got eaten alive by teams that played disciplined and stayed in their systems.

Eventually, the Flyers would start being too aggressive and get caught and boom.
- Jsaquella

When you say it like that, that the players are playing with too much unfocused aggression, I agree. Is that partially to blame for Lavi's system? Of course. It's a natural by-product of the system. However, I wouldn't say that no changes have been made or attempted. Have the changes worked or are they workable with this group, that's entirely a whole different can of worms. My simple point was that it's unfair to the coaching staff to say that nothing has been tried or attempted, you know? Otherwise, I'd agree with you assessment of the lack of discipline, which I would put under the same category as lack of execution and effort. Their overall lack of consistency to things that they need to do to win games.

maybe I'm confused by the answers I keep getting. I hear from you, and others, that the Flyers have enought talent to be a good team, but they don't have players good enough to play Laviolette's system. Come on...it's not part of Lavilette's system to play with "reckless abandon". He doesn't teach the defensemen to pinch in when in every situation. His "system" is a framework. It's up to the players to execute it. If you can't commit without getting beat...don't commit. Giroux, Hartnell, Briere, Couturier, Reed, Simmonds, Voarchek, Rinaldo, Schenn, Talbot, Coburn, Grossman, Gustafson, Mesz, Timmonen were good enough to play Lavy's system last year, but aren't this year? Who's messing them up? Fedotenko, Gagne, L.Schenn and Gervais are making it imposible for the team to play Laviolette's system?
- Dkos

Laviolette's system is a 3-2 forecheck system that relies on attacking the other team and overwhelming them with fast break opportunities and keeping them hemmed in their own end and getting them running around. By it's very nature it encourages teams to push the bounds between controlled aggression and reckless abandon.

When it works, it's beautiful.

The trouble is, teams who use a disciplined approach stymie his system by not wasting energy with running around in their own end. They attack the puck and force turnovers in the neutral zone. They frustrate the Flyers into becoming too aggressive, and then capitalize on the mistakes made.

There's a reason why they Flyers are 5-18-1 against the Rangers and Devils since the start of last season.

As for the differences between this year and last, other teams now have a great blueprint how to beat them and they are less mobile on the blueline without Carle, which means they need to make changes to adapt. The ones they have made are minor and ineffective.

When you say it like that, that the players are playing with too much unfocused aggression, I agree. Is that partially to blame for Lavi's system? Of course. It's a natural by-product of the system. However, I wouldn't say that no changes have been made or attempted. Have the changes worked or are they workable with this group, that's entirely a whole different can of worms. My simple point was that it's unfair to the coaching staff to say that nothing has been tried or attempted, you know? Otherwise, I'd agree with you assessment of the lack of discipline, which I would put under the same category as lack of execution and effort. Their overall lack of consistency to things that they need to do to win games.
- Flyers_V88

I've stressed that whatever they have tried has failed. It's just easier to type no adjustment than no effective adjustments. The difference between making no adjustments and no effective adjustments to me is immaterial, because either one means the coach is doing a poop job.

The thing is, the adjustments or tweaks(which is the more accurate word) are very minor and don't do anything to change the aggressive nature of the system that make things crumble with the lack of discipline.

To me it's 6 one way, half dozen the other. It' not new issues, I have a litany of issue with Laviolette's coaching over the past few years, that I have been able to accept better because they were winning.

maybe I'm confused by the answers I keep getting. I hear from you, and others, that the Flyers have enought talent to be a good team, but they don't have players good enough to play Laviolette's system. Come on...it's not part of Lavilette's system to play with "reckless abandon". He doesn't teach the defensemen to pinch in when in every situation. His "system" is a framework. It's up to the players to execute it. If you can't commit without getting beat...don't commit. Giroux, Hartnell, Briere, Couturier, Reed, Simmonds, Voarchek, Rinaldo, Schenn, Talbot, Coburn, Grossman, Gustafson, Mesz, Timmonen were good enough to play Lavy's system last year, but aren't this year? Who's messing them up? Fedotenko, Gagne, L.Schenn and Gervais are making it imposible for the team to play Laviolette's system?
- Dkos

Yes, Laviolette's system is over aggressive. And yes he does teach the defenseman to gamble on the offensive side of the puck. When you see experienced veteran defenseman such as Timonen and Grossmann do it routinely, it's not an accident. I know Laviolette's system inside and out. It is not a read and react situation for the defenseman. You see that on one of the very first shifts of the Devils game. Basically the defenseman takes the place of the forechecker, and they're hoping that it forces an errant pass or a chip out to the neutral zone where the Flyers can regather the puck and go on the attack again.

I'll again ask you if you saw the playoff Series last year against the Devils?

When you say it like that, that the players are playing with too much unfocused aggression, I agree. Is that partially to blame for Lavi's system? Of course. It's a natural by-product of the system. However, I wouldn't say that no changes have been made or attempted. Have the changes worked or are they workable with this group, that's entirely a whole different can of worms. My simple point was that it's unfair to the coaching staff to say that nothing has been tried or attempted, you know? Otherwise, I'd agree with you assessment of the lack of discipline, which I would put under the same category as lack of execution and effort. Their overall lack of consistency to things that they need to do to win games.
- Flyers_V88

What changes have been made or attempted by the Flyers Coaching staff?

What changes have been made or attempted by the Flyers Coaching staff?
- MJL

There hasn't been a complete overhaul type of change, but I've noticed in-game, Peter has changed the pressure attack of the forwards from 3 down to 2, to even 1 at times. I've also noticed that we've even at times tried to play a semi-trap game. All of which haven't yielded great results.

There hasn't been a complete overhaul type of change, but I've noticed in-game, Peter has changed the pressure attack of the forwards from 3 down to 2, to even 1 at times. I've also noticed that we've even at times tried to play a semi-trap game. All of which haven't yielded great results.
- Flyers_V88

I haven't see that at all. And I have an in-depth knowledge of Hockey systems. Other then in situational play, such as behind a dump in with a line change behind it. Laviolette has continued to play his 3-2 press forecheck. He has even to the detriment of the team, ramped up the forechecking pressure, such as in the 3rd period of the Ranger game. With he score tied 2-2 to the detriment of the team. Cost them the game. Other then minor tweaks. And numerous line personnel changes. The adjustments are non existant.

Yes, Laviolette's system is over aggressive. And yes he does teach the defenseman to gamble on the offensive side of the puck. When you see experienced veteran defenseman such as Timonen and Grossmann do it routinely, it's not an accident. I know Laviolette's system inside and out. It is not a read and react situation for the defenseman. You see that on one of the very first shifts of the Devils game. Basically the defenseman takes the place of the forechecker, and they're hoping that it forces an errant pass or a chip out to the neutral zone where the Flyers can regather the puck and go on the attack again.

I'll again ask you if you saw the playoff Series last year against the Devils?
- MJL

Too bad Holmgren and Laviolette don't understand hockey like you do. Holmgren saw last years playoffs with the Devils too. What did he do? Change the coach? Get players that would work with the system? Guess I'm not making myself very clear. I agree with you...this team's not good enough to play Laviolettes system well...but, I also think they are not good enough to play ANY system well. I'm sorry I just can't blame this team's poor play on Laviolettes unwillingness to compromise on his system.

We are a young team in rebuild mode going through a sophomore slump. We are looking at the results of a strange half year with twice as many games condensed into the playing schedule with half as many practices vital to the sucess of a young team. We got good players, I just don't see them playing together well.

We need to get last year out of our heads and realize we ARE rebuilding. So no trading our rebuild team for draft picks kay? I think any team that makes drastic coaching, personnel or strategy changes based on this season are being extremely foolish. I'm not saying making moves or getting some D help or going for some higher draft picks is not what we need. But we would be better served taking a mulligan for the year and working on improving the team rather than blowing it up.

Too bad Holmgren and Laviolette don't understand hockey like you do. Holmgren saw last years playoffs with the Devils too. What did he do? Change the coach? Get players that would work with the system? Guess I'm not making myself very clear. I agree with you...this team's not good enough to play Laviolettes system well...but, I also think they are not good enough to play ANY system well. I'm sorry I just can't blame this team's poor play on Laviolettes unwillingness to compromise on his system.
- Dkos

Both Holmgren and Snider mentioned they expected systemic changes prior to the season, and when Laviolette was asked about it he said he didn't expect to change.

Holmgren, by design, would have landed Weber or Suter and that would have helped a great deal, in several areas. Not that it would have been a cure all.

Too bad Holmgren and Laviolette don't understand hockey like you do. Holmgren saw last years playoffs with the Devils too. What did he do? Change the coach? Get players that would work with the system? Guess I'm not making myself very clear. I agree with you...this team's not good enough to play Laviolettes system well...but, I also think they are not good enough to play ANY system well. I'm sorry I just can't blame this team's poor play on Laviolettes unwillingness to compromise on his system.
- Dkos

I couldn't disagree more that this team is not good enough to play any system well. There is no doubt that this team should be a playoff team. Not all of that is on the Coach, but certainly a great deal of it.

Both Holmgren and Snider mentioned they expected systemic changes prior to the season, and when Laviolette was asked about it he said he didn't expect to change.

Holmgren, by design, would have landed Weber or Suter and that would have helped a great deal, in several areas. Not that it would have been a cure all.
- Jsaquella

Yes Holmgren absolutely alluded to the Flyers defensive struggles, which are not new this Season. As partly being attributed to the way they play. And that he expected the Coaching staff to sit down in the off season and evaluate that. Laviolette in post Season interviews, while not coming out directly saying it. Intimated that he beleives in his system, and other then minor tweaks such as a breakout against a certain opponent, or trying to take advantage of a particular weakness against a team, isn't going to change.

And the GM trading an offensive Winger for a stay at home physical defenseman, was not an accident.

Both Holmgren and Snider mentioned they expected systemic changes prior to the season, and when Laviolette was asked about it he said he didn't expect to change.

Holmgren, by design, would have landed Weber or Suter and that would have helped a great deal, in several areas. Not that it would have been a cure all.
- Jsaquella

I don't put a lot of stock in what coaches/players say to the media. If Laviolette refused to comply with the wishes of the GM/Ownership prior to the start of the season, why didn't they fire him? I don't really see Snider as a guy who would take that from an employee.

Hey, a bunch players and the GM said yesterday that it wasn't the coaches fault that they are playing so bad. There you go. Glad I could settle everything.

I don't put a lot of stock in what coaches/players say to the media. If Laviolette refused to comply with the wishes of the GM/Ownership prior to the start of the season, why didn't they fire him? I don't really see Snider as a guy who would take that from an employee.

Hey, a bunch players and the GM said yesterday that it wasn't the coaches fault that they are playing so bad. There you go. Glad I could settle everything.
- Dkos

Except you've settled nothing. I agree when the GM, coach or players make comments in the press, it's usually bluster or denials.

When Snider makes a statement, he generally means what is in the statement. He doesn't step in during the year. When Snider steps in is the off season. He'll let Holmgren do what he decides to do for the season, then as soon as it ends, Snider will step in and dictate.

I don't put a lot of stock in what coaches/players say to the media. If Laviolette refused to comply with the wishes of the GM/Ownership prior to the start of the season, why didn't they fire him? I don't really see Snider as a guy who would take that from an employee.

Hey, a bunch players and the GM said yesterday that it wasn't the coaches fault that they are playing so bad. There you go. Glad I could settle everything.
- Dkos

When reading or listening to what Coaches/GM's/ players say, you have to read between the lines. No GM is going to come out and publicly state that the Coach isn't doing a good job during the middle of the Season.

How about the NJD D ..... nothing spectacular.
- Chris48

*cough* Brodeur *cough*

Look at how they struggled once Marty went out, and there's your answer.

*cough* Brodeur *cough*

Look at how they struggled once Marty went out, and there's your answer.
- wolfhounds

They didn't struggle Wednesday night.

I couldn't disagree more that this team is not good enough to play any system well. There is no doubt that this team should be a playoff team. Not all of that is on the Coach, but certainly a great deal of it.
- MJL

This team has the potential to be very good, but many of the players are not performing, and the responsibility for that lack of production - and for constantly making bad mistakes - has to be put on them, the players.

Couts: big step backwards this year.
Talbot: 2 goals.
Hartnell: 2 goals.
Briere: 5 goals.
Giroux: 8 goals.

On down the line.

That's not the coach, that's players not getting it done.

They didn't struggle Wednesday night.
- MJL

That's not an indicator of the Devils being a good team but rather the Flyers being worse.

Except you've settled nothing. I agree when the GM, coach or players make comments in the press, it's usually bluster or denials.

When Snider makes a statement, he generally means what is in the statement. He doesn't step in during the year. When Snider steps in is the off season. He'll let Holmgren do what he decides to do for the season, then as soon as it ends, Snider will step in and dictate.
- Jsaquella

I don't want to keep going back and forth on this. I can live with the fact that we disagree. You and MJL know far more about hockey than I ever will...but you did say that "prior" to the season the GM/Owner made it known that they expected changes and that Lavy said he wasn't going to make changes. Why would they let the coach, prior to the start of the season, openly defy them like that?

Maybe Lavy isn't a good coach. Maybe he refuses to change his style to match his players. Maybe not. The fact is that Holmgren and Snider hired him and Homer and Snider built this team. If anyone is to blame for this mess it's them.

That's not an indicator of the Devils being a good team but rather the Flyers being worse.
- wolfhounds

Disagree. The Devils are a good team, and they showed it Wednesday night.

This team has the potential to be very good, but many of the players are not performing, and the responsibility for that lack of production - and for constantly making bad mistakes - has to be put on them, the players.

Couts: big step backwards this year.
Talbot: 2 goals.
Hartnell: 2 goals.
Briere: 5 goals.
Giroux: 8 goals.

On down the line.

That's not the coach, that's players not getting it done.
- wolfhounds

The Coaches job is to put the players in the best position to succeed. And if players aren't succeeding, then it's the Coaches job to make adjustments to help them succeed. It's certainly not entirely on the Coaches. But I know the difference between the two.

*cough* Brodeur *cough*

Look at how they struggled once Marty went out, and there's your answer.
- wolfhounds

They struggled when Brodeur was out largely because Hedberg played awful. They rotated two kids in with Hedberg. As soon as Hedberg found his game, they started winning again.

I don't want to keep going back and forth on this. I can live with the fact that we disagree. You and MJL know far more about hockey than I ever will...but you did say that "prior" to the season the GM/Owner made it known that they expected changes and that Lavy said he wasn't going to make changes. Why would they let the coach, prior to the start of the season, openly defy them like that?

Maybe Lavy isn't a good coach. Maybe he refuses to change his style to match his players. Maybe not. The fact is that Holmgren and Snider hired him and Homer and Snider built this team. If anyone is to blame for this mess it's them.
- Dkos

Holmgren made his comments in the summer. Snider made his during the week long "camp" prior to the season. Laviolette made his statement about not changing afterward, right before the first game. Little hard to fire him then, and again, Snider doesn't get involved in-season.

I don't want to keep going back and forth on this. I can live with the fact that we disagree. You and MJL know far more about hockey than I ever will...but you did say that "prior" to the season the GM/Owner made it known that they expected changes and that Lavy said he wasn't going to make changes. Why would they let the coach, prior to the start of the season, openly defy them like that?

Maybe Lavy isn't a good coach. Maybe he refuses to change his style to match his players. Maybe not. The fact is that Holmgren and Snider hired him and Homer and Snider built this team. If anyone is to blame for this mess it's them.
- Dkos

You are 100% correct. Holmgren is responsible for who Coaches the team. And Snider is responsible for the whole ball game. But Snider isn't likely going to fire Holmgren. And Snider certainly isn't going to fire himself.
Laviolette is a good Coach. He's won a Cup. But he is one dimensional, and stubborn to a fault. But he also has some very good qualities to himself. There are elements to his system that are very good. But top teams are able to play multiple ways, and are able to adjust to certain opponents and situations. He refuses to change. That is his fault as a Coach. At what point does a Coach say, you know what. They just can't play this way. No matter how much video we watch, or how much I tell them not to do something. So what are the choices. Go down with the ship and stick to your guns. Or change? And try a different way of play? And if that is done, and the they still aren't getting it done. Well then we have a player issue.

I don't know how long you've been around this site. But I am historically Pro Coach. I backed Hitch when he got fired. And also Stevens when he got fired. I don't blame a Coach easily. But I know the difference. And I know Laviolette's history. I really don't want him fired. I'd much prefer that he'd be willing to change, and go onto success here. And there is also the possibility that this team could grow and in the future, be able to play this system. But I honestly think they need to improve defensively to be a top team. And while that is not completely on the Coach. There are a lot of system related issues that are a problem that contribute to the poor all around team play.