You had it right on Wednesday...."Calm before the storm". Watch for Mr. Snider to leave his box early. I am sure the coaches will keep one eye focused there. He can't be too pleased with the play of Bobrovski in Ohio, either. He is not a patient man.
- TJ

If he's displeased with the play of Bobrovsky, then Snider should look in the mirror. He's the one that effectively ended Bob's time in Philly by demanding a big name goalie.

This all stemmed from posts indicating Lavi and the staff haven't even attempted to, to which I replied that there has been some attempt. As to the effectiveness and timing, that's up for debate as we can clearly see.

Is that the only reason the team is losing? No. I agree with people here in that Lavi has an issue with certain styles of play, but I was just trying to illustrate that it's also unfair to completely disregard anything they've tried to do... That's all.
- Flyers_V88

That's fine and acceptable. My issues with Laviolette started before this year, but this year the poop has hit the fan

If he's displeased with the play of Bobrovsky, then Snider should look in the mirror. He's the one that effectively ended Bob's time in Philly by demanding a big name goalie.
- Jsaquella

Agreed. Quite honestly I'm hoping Richards, Carter & Gags's cup in LA and Bob's success in Ohio bring a hard light to maybe rash choices are not always the way to go. Because while I hate what the team has done this year. Breaking this team up over 20-30 games of play in a condensed time frame would be rash and reckless.

Agreed. Quite honestly I'm hoping Richards, Carter & Gags's cup in LA and Bob's success in Ohio bring a hard light to maybe rash choices are not always the way to go. Because while I hate what the team has done this year. Breaking this team up over 20-30 games of play in a condensed time frame would be rash and reckless.
- flyler

For sure, and I'd like to believe Holmer is actually telling the truth this time when he says he has no plans to shake-up the team drastically or do anything brash.

Agreed. Quite honestly I'm hoping Richards, Carter & Gags's cup in LA and Bob's success in Ohio bring a hard light to maybe rash choices are not always the way to go. Because while I hate what the team has done this year. Breaking this team up over 20-30 games of play in a condensed time frame would be rash and reckless.
- flyler

I think if they stressed two way play and disciplined aggression like the Devils and Kings, they'd be right in the thick of the race for the division.

You're completely dismissing the possibility that the reason so many players are underachieving is because of Coaching and the style of play, and lack of adjustments. You make my point for me. What are the odds of that many players all having subpar years at the same time?
The point you are missing is that there is a reason why this team right now, is not that good.
Good teams even when they have all of their good players, go into slumps.
- MJL

Someone gave me a heads up about this thread...so repost:

Not trying to start up anything, but I noticed you are harping a lot on Lavy's "system" this season, yet in the past, you said systems don't matter, etc. Why the change?

Also, what was so different under Lavy's system last year that resulted in a 103 pt reg season campaign, keeping in mind game changer Pronger played less than a 1/6th of the season. I think we both know that it's not like Carle was the lynchpin player that made Lavy's system work (hardly)..and the team played very well down the stretch after Grossman arrived, and didn't let up that many goals against (including a 3-0 shutout of the NJD a 3-2 win over Detroit, 4-1 over Montreal). So why is Lavy's system all of the sudden so bad/inappropriate for the team as constructed now versus last season (even post-Grossman)?

They're 5-18-1 vs New Jersey and the Rangers over this season and last. That's provided a blueprint of how to beat them. Stay disciplined, don't get to running around and eventually, the Flyers will get over aggressive, make a mistake like a bad pinch or a lazy cover, give up an odd man rush and goal.

The last loss against the Pens is a prime example. The first period, then Penguins were an undisciplined mess in the first period. Blown coverages, stupid penalties, loads of running around. In the second period, they were disciplined. They didn't run around, stayed out of the box and were smart without being over aggressive, and the Flyers had zero answers.
- Jsaquella
- Jsaq

But it worked more often than not last season (the NJ playoff series notwithstanding), resulting in a much better campaign. Wasn't it the same Lavy system and most of the same players? But yet lots of people are making that claim that Lavy is trying to play his system without the right/ideal players to play it. Something doesn't jibe.

But it worked more often than not last season (the NJ playoff series notwithstanding), resulting in a much better campaign. Wasn't it the same Lavy system and most of the same players? But yet lots of people are making that claim that Lavy is trying to play his system without the right/ideal players to play it. Something doesn't jibe.
- exlund

Not to get into boring people on two threads, but I feel you seriously underestimate Matt Carle's contributions last year and the impact that other teams scouting has on things.

Teams have watched the Flyers get dominated by the Rangers, Devils and Bruins this season and last. They're simply copying what those teams are doing and the Flyers haven't had an answer.

Granted I wish Lavi would realize the dump + chase doesn't always work. It's only affective when a) players actually beat the other team to the puck b) it's not over utilized to the point the other team is expecting it all the time.
- DinkusMaximus

There is a statistically significant disadvantage to dumping and chasing versus carrying the puck into the zone...the latter results in more shots and posession. I particularly dislike when a team dumps and chases fromt he red line, giving up the puck to the other team to make a line change...why voluntarily give the puck up to the other team, especially when you are missing numbers when they quickly counter? I know it's not conventional wisdom, but when the situation allows, I think players should give the puck up to a player that will remain on the ice ( a dman when the forwards change or vice versa) and hold until the change is done rather than just dump and give the puck up to the other team so they can start a rush. A second option rather than dump, is to shoot it AT the net...force the goalie to make a save, force a faceoff in the zone or generate a nice rebound...just don't do it against tenders who excel at puck moving (Pronger was the best at this)...

Someone gave me a heads up about this thread...so repost:

Not trying to start up anything, but I noticed you are harping a lot on Lavy's "system" this season, yet in the past, you said systems don't matter, etc. Why the change?

Also, what was so different under Lavy's system last year that resulted in a 103 pt reg season campaign, keeping in mind game changer Pronger played less than a 1/6th of the season. I think we both know that it's not like Carle was the lynchpin player that made Lavy's system work (hardly)..and the team played very well down the stretch after Grossman arrived, and didn't let up that many goals against (including a 3-0 shutout of the NJD a 3-2 win over Detroit, 4-1 over Montreal). So why is Lavy's system all of the sudden so bad/inappropriate for the team as constructed now versus last season (even post-Grossman)?
- exlund

Interesting point. I tend to agree with this moreso than blaming it all on Lavi...

Interesting point. I tend to agree with this moreso than blaming it all on Lavi...
- Flyers_V88

Again, not to belabor the point, nobody is blaming it "all" on Laviolette.

Why is it when you give any kind of compliment to a player you're calling him a star and when you criticize somebody, it's like you think they're a pile of poop or blame them for everything that's gone wrong.

It's always black or white.

Not to get into boring people on two threads, but I feel you seriously underestimate Matt Carle's contributions last year
- Jsaquella

He wasn't that impressive last year imo, and let's be real, he's not the type of player that keys things out there...he's more of a support player...and he's been exposed as such in Tampa this season playing out of his depth as a top minute D man. Unless you're saying yes, it was Matt Carle that was the key to playing Lavy's system succesfully?
.

Again, not to belabor the point, nobody is blaming it "all" on Laviolette.

Why is it when you give any kind of compliment to a player you're calling him a star and when you criticize somebody, it's like you think they're a pile of poop or blame them for everything that's gone wrong.

It's always black or white.
- Jsaquella

Correction: Not everyone is blaming it "all" on Lavi. I didn't mean to imply that, my bad.

And to be clear, I'm not married ot the idea of keeping Lavy...he's made some questionable decisions at times (not jsut this season) and the deterioration/lack of team defensive fundamentals is very frustrating. I do like Lavy's fire though, and I don't buy all that much into the idea of not having the types of players to employ his system etc. Lots of young players and a lot of adversity to deal with with this team...I'm not sure he's "the" problem...but sometimes good coaches just run their course/wear out their welcome as the team tunes them out or what have you...not saying this is what is happening but that can and does happen.

[quote=exlund]

Considering that Carle led the team in TOI among the defensemen, and a regular on the PK and PP, I'd say that he was a fairly large part of what was going on that was successful last season.

Yes, Carle had a lot of turnovers and made his share of mistakes. But youtube clips of Grossmann and Schenn making a nice play don't make them consistently good at moving the puck.

Just curious...do you play hockey? I wonder if this is the attitude of someone who plays the game as opposed to someone who studies the game. I agree with you. Granted I've never played at a level anywhere close to the NHL, but I tend to blame the players before I blame the coach or the system.
- Dkos

I played limited ice, lots of street, and a bit of roller hockey. But, unfortunately, it's been a while since I've played any of them. I used to really enjoy getting in net and stoning my friends...except my one buddy who just had a nasty slapshot...and you wouldn't think it to look at him (skinny). Go figure.

Anyway, I think there are certain fundamentals that translate across all (or most) sports, and from my experience, most problems start with the players.

That being said, I think most here would agree with that, and their problem with Lavy is that he hasn't been able to - given sufficient time - to rectify whatever the issue is with his players.

Considering that Carle led the team in TOI among the defensemen, and a regular on the PK and PP, I'd say that he was a fairly large part of what was going on that was successful last season.
- Jsaquella

I think having MC as your top minute D man is a sad commentary...he's just not that type of player. He looked pretty bad in some of those games, but he had support form a pretty good corps (Timo, Grossman, Coburn, Mez, Bourdon was coming on, Kubina) imo. and as I said, he's been exposed in Tampa in that role, where the support wasn't as much.

Yes, Carle had a lot of turnovers and made his share of mistakes. But youtube clips of Grossmann and Schenn making a nice play don't make them consistently good at moving the puck.
- Jsaq

If there are enough of them, it can illustrate their competency...those clips weren't cherry picked from a bunch of games...they were from ONE game. I honestly believe that Grossman and Schenn each made/make puck moving plays that I don't think Carle could/would have done (particulary those where they skated with the puck out of the zone)...Carle's puck moving abilities are/were quite overrated imo. His M.O. most of the time was to go behind the net and just make a simple pass to his d partner to start the break. To me that's not a legit puck mover...not saying he never does more than that (in terms of puck moving), but not too frequently.

Not to get into boring people on two threads, but I feel you seriously underestimate Matt Carle's contributions last year and the impact that other teams scouting has on things.

Teams have watched the Flyers get dominated by the Rangers, Devils and Bruins this season and last. They're simply copying what those teams are doing and the Flyers haven't had an answer.
- Jsaquella

Do you think that means teams have flexible systems? ie, one system for one opponent, a modified or completely different system for another, etc?

And if so, why would Lavy be one a one size fits all coach?

I think having MC as your top minute D man is a sad commentary...he's just not that type of player. He looked pretty bad in some of those games, but he had support form a pretty good corps (Timo, Grossman, Coburn, Mez, Bourdon was coming on, Kubina) imo. and as I said, he's been exposed in Tampa in that role, where the support wasn't as much.


If there are enough of them, it can illustrate their competency...those clips weren't cherry picked from a bunch of games...they were from ONE game. I honestly believe that Grossman and Schenn each made/make puck moving plays that I don't think Carle could/would have done (particulary those where they skated with the puck out of the zone)...Carle's puck moving abilities are/were quite overrated imo. His M.O. most of the time was to go behind the net and just make a simple pass to his d partner to start the break. To me that's not a legit puck mover...not saying he never does more than that (in terms of puck moving), but not too frequently.
- exlund

The bottom line is, Carle was the top minute getting player on a team that got 103 points. Perhaps he was better supported. But to say they don't miss him, just doesn't jibe.

I say this being a fan of the defensemen that the Flyers have. I'd love to add a true number one, but they don't grow on trees.

I just feel that a more mobile group would be beneficial to the style of play that Laviolette prefers. And honestly, when it comes to issues with defensemen, Grossmann and Schenn are at the bottom of the list.

Do you think that means teams have flexible systems? ie, one system for one opponent, a modified or completely different system for another, etc?

And if so, why would Lavy be one a one size fits all coach?
- wolfhounds

Most good teams have flexibility within their systems, and can play a number of ways. An example is when the Pens got the lead in the 3rd period, they changed to a 1-2-2, and checked the Flyers all over the ice. The Flyers never really seriously challenged to tie the game up. The Devils late in the game played a 1-2-2 trap on Wednesday.
Laviolette only likes to play one way. An extremely aggressive attack forecheck.

The bottom line is, Carle was the top minute getting player on a team that got 103 points. Perhaps he was better supported. But to say they don't miss him, just doesn't jibe.

I say this being a fan of the defensemen that the Flyers have. I'd love to add a true number one, but they don't grow on trees.

I just feel that a more mobile group would be beneficial to the style of play that Laviolette prefers. And honestly, when it comes to issues with defensemen, Grossmann and Schenn are at the bottom of the list.
- Jsaquella

There is no question that to play Laviolette's system, they need better puck moving defenseman. There is no doubt that the Flyers miss Carle's contributions. He was really strong at making tape to tape passes under pressure onto Forwards sticks to start breakouts. And he was really good at executing stretch passes that Laviolette loves to utilize. But this Season to this point. I don't feel that as good as Carle was in certain areas of the game. As good of an ES point producer as he was. I don't think, with as bad as the Flyers team game is right now. And as bad as they are defensively as a team. That he would make a major difference. He's good but not that good. He can't come close to carrying a team like Pronger could. But you know what, Carle isn't here. And no reason to even be discussing Carle other then a poster showed up and wants to open old arguments that have already been settled long ago. I mean should we discuss Steve Eminger? LOL
And you know as well as I do, that the Flyers got smoked against the Devils last Season in the playoffs. So the issues currently facing the team, are not new. They were apparent last year also. This team is just not as good as last year's team. For a lot of reasons. But when things aren't going well, there has to be adjustments. And whether anyone thinks it's the players or the Coach. It is still on the Coach to either correct the chronic and repeated errors. And adapt and adjust to the roster he has.

There is no question that to play Laviolette's system, they need better puck moving defenseman. There is no doubt that the Flyers miss Carle's contributions. He was really strong at making tape to tape passes under pressure onto Forwards sticks to start breakouts. And he was really good at executing stretch passes that Laviolette loves to utilize. But this Season to this point. I don't feel that as good as Carle was in certain areas of the game. As good of an ES point producer as he was. I don't think, with as bad as the Flyers team game is right now. And as bad as they are defensively as a team. That he would make a major difference.He's good but not that good. He can't come close to carrying a team like Pronger could. But you know what, Carle isn't here. And no reason to even be discussing Carle other then a poster showed up and wants to open old arguments that have already been settled long ago. I mean should we discuss Steve Eminger? LOL
And you know as well as I do, that the Flyers got smoked against the Devils last Season in the playoffs. So the issues currently facing the team, are not new. They were apparent last year also. This team is just not as good as last year's team. For a lot of reasons. But when things aren't going well, there has to be adjustments. And whether anyone thinks it's the players or the Coach. It is still on the Coach to either correct the chronic and repeated errors. And adapt and adjust to the roster he has.
- MJL

That was interesting to say the least.

Lavy should have been released from his position after the last loss... now it is not all his fault but he needs to take a large portion of the blame he doesn't adapt he doesn't change same thing night in and night out . He can't seem to motivate his players and get then to step up ... he has lost the team

You're a joke and a complete tool

Agreed. Quite honestly I'm hoping Richards, Carter & Gags's cup in LA and Bob's success in Ohio bring a hard light to maybe rash choices are not always the way to go. Because while I hate what the team has done this year. Breaking this team up over 20-30 games of play in a condensed time frame would be rash and reckless.
- flyler

Agree wholeheartedly. This season to me is little more than Bettman's folly. His system of suvking the life out of every team that invests and does it's best to put a quality product on the ice every year is in large part why guys like Mr. Snider get so frustrated and rash. Adding two more teams will just add to the misery. This League is a joke and has been for a long time. Off topic, I know, but how frustrating it must be to send money to Nashville so they can match the contract you offer a top defenseman, that would have made all the difference this season.