The trouble here is that when somebody says that a guy is a good player, or that a coach should be fired, it's immediately taken to the extreme.

Defending Braydon Coburn, like Matt Carle in years past, is suddenly the equivalent of saying Coburn is an awesome player on par with Zdeno Chara. Conversely, saying that the team is poorly coached, and pointing out that Laviolette hasn't made effective adjustments is laying all the blame at the coach's feet.

This is what 4 year old kids do. They live in a world of absolutes, black and white, wrong and right, no gray. The real world is full of gray.

When I call for a coach to be replaced, I don't do it from one game. I do it based on a lot of things. When I see the same mistake made by just about every member of the team(i.e. ill advised pinches by defensemen that lead to odd man rushes) That's something I blame on the coach. Because the same kind of thing happening repeatedly and done by 90% of the roster is something systemic.

When you have an incident like Kostisyn it's on the player. The Preds don't have a habit of doing what he did, and he got shredded by the coach after the game for doing it.

The Flyers have had several players that haven't approached their expected level of play. That's also a factor, but the bottom line is, there are a LOT of teams that have less talent than the Flyers who are ahead of them in the standings. Toss in the record against the Devils and Rangers, not to mention Boston over the past couple years, and the comical mishandling of the goalies in the 2011 playoff, and it's time to make a change behind the bench.
- Jsaquella

amen

When Timonen leaves, it will be up to guys like Coburn to step up production. If/when he fails to do so, one person will argue that there never were higher expectation for him to do so.
- jmatchett

i'm going on record to say the expectation for Coburn to be a number one defenseman is not there. It may have been at one time, but that ship has set sail a long time ago.

edit: I'm not saying he sucks either.

At least it is a deep draft, unlike the last time the Flyers were terrible.
- Feanor

very true. I honestly don't know much about the prospects being I haven't watch much junior hockey. Saw a bit of the WJC (just games involving Canada, USA and the medal games). so all I can go buy is what I read and hear. that said, seems like if the Flyers are in the 7-10 range, Ristolainen seems to be someone I would be interested in.....once again going by what I read.

Who's fault is it that they don't have the personnel to play his system?
- PLindbergh31

Not the Coaches. But it is the Coaches fault for continuing to play the same system, and not adjusting when he knows they can't play it.

i'm going on record to say the expectation for Coburn to be a number one defenseman is not there. It may have been at one time, but that ship has set sail a long time ago.
- JoeRussomanno

I don't think anyone's expected him to be a #1 since 10/11. But to be more of an offensive contributor while playing sound defensive hockey shouldn't be out of the question (#3 production).

the organization has alot of these type players
- vejim

thats not necessarily a bad thing

When Timonen leaves, it will be up to guys like Coburn to step up production. If/when he fails to do so, one person will argue that there never were higher expectation for him to do so.
- jmatchett

When Timonen leaves, it's up to management to replace him. Expecting Coburn or Meszaros is not going to work, because they can't do what he does.

I don't think anyone's expected him to be a #1 since 10/11. But to be more of an offensive contributor while playing sound defensive hockey shouldn't be out of the question (#3 production).
- jmatchett

I see him as a 2nd pairing guy. If by that you mean a number 3 then fine. Is he playing that right now, not exactly by your definition or mine due to the amount of mistakes. However getting back to my other discussion, I'd like a change of scheme and evaluate from there. As for what kind of scheme I'd want, it's one that preaches sound positional play in all three zones. That simple.

very true. I honestly don't know much about the prospects being I haven't watch much junior hockey. Saw a bit of the WJC (just games involving Canada, USA and the medal games). so all I can go buy is what I read and hear. that said, seems like if the Flyers are in the 7-10 range, Ristolainen seems to be someone I would be interested in.....once again going by what I read.
- nastyflyergirl

From the CHL/juniors guys I follow, the consensus seems to be that after Seth Jones, they'd rank the D-men like this: Nurse, Ristolainen, Pulock, Zadorov and Morrissey.

The trouble here is that when somebody says that a guy is a good player, or that a coach should be fired, it's immediately taken to the extreme.

Defending Braydon Coburn, like Matt Carle in years past, is suddenly the equivalent of saying Coburn is an awesome player on par with Zdeno Chara. Conversely, saying that the team is poorly coached, and pointing out that Laviolette hasn't made effective adjustments is laying all the blame at the coach's feet.

This is what 4 year old kids do. They live in a world of absolutes, black and white, wrong and right, no gray. The real world is full of gray.

When I call for a coach to be replaced, I don't do it from one game. I do it based on a lot of things. When I see the same mistake made by just about every member of the team(i.e. ill advised pinches by defensemen that lead to odd man rushes) That's something I blame on the coach. Because the same kind of thing happening repeatedly and done by 90% of the roster is something systemic.

When you have an incident like Kostisyn it's on the player. The Preds don't have a habit of doing what he did, and he got shredded by the coach after the game for doing it.

The Flyers have had several players that haven't approached their expected level of play. That's also a factor, but the bottom line is, there are a LOT of teams that have less talent than the Flyers who are ahead of them in the standings. Toss in the record against the Devils and Rangers, not to mention Boston over the past couple years, and the comical mishandling of the goalies in the 2011 playoff, and it's time to make a change behind the bench.
- Jsaquella

And the skies have......opened.....

And the ground we stood on shook....

Thunder came roaring out of the sky....

And there it appeared on my browser....another logical post by jsaq....


(but admitted youve been calling for his head like the rest of us four year olds)

Yeah, I don'tunderstand why. Leafs and Sabres played a 3 pt game.. Maybe because the Rangers and Canes lost?

Also, unfortunately, Brodeur passed Hexy last night in career goals scored.

However, Iwould argue that Hexy is still ahead in actual goals scored.. Two of Brodeur's were with another team shooting it into it's own net. Hexy actually shot them both vs Boston and Washington.
- Hextall271

another asterisk

And the skies have......opened.....

And the ground we stood on shook....

Thunder came roaring out of the sky....

And there it appeared on my browser....another logical post by jsaq....


(but admitted youve been calling for his head like the rest of us four year olds)

- Philly1980

you know he kinda rips you for your Bob Ryab obsession, too right?

Claude Giroux.
- NickTheKid87

Simon Gagne. Justin Williams. Mike Richards.....

We could go on and on. The Flyers have shown they are pretty good at drafting first round talent.

Heck, even Downie was a decent pick at the back end of his draft year.

People in here need new material. SSDD.
- Flyskippy

And the skies have......opened.....

And the ground we stood on shook....

Thunder came roaring out of the sky....

And there it appeared on my browser....another logical post by jsaq....


(but admitted youve been calling for his head like the rest of us four year olds)

- Philly1980

The only absolute I've seen from Jsaq in calling for Lavi's removal is pointing to his absolute inability to find an effective gameplan against the Rags and Devils. I find it absolutely frustrating, too.

you know he kinda rips you for your Bob Ryab obsession, too right?
- JoeRussomanno

LOL

Bob ryab would win a us a cup...that is the missing piece...

who did they lose exactly of any significance? Jagr? Replaced by Voracek. Bobrovsky? Okay he might have started 2 games by this point under this coach. Carle? Oh wow, I think we have a winner? Matt Carle's departure has plummeted the flyers to oblivion! what shall we ever do?!
No this coach refuses to adapt his system to the personnel he has. In turn other teams have exploited the flaws, now exacerbated by lack of ideal personnel, and beaten this team time and time again. This team can't protect a lead even when they have one. The line changes, for the love of god, did all these players get into the NHL and sign lucrative contracts for being totally inept? No that's the coach, plain and simple.
- JoeRussomanno

I don't think the subtraction of Pronger can be over stated. Not saying he'd have cured all the ills, but losing his minutes, and ability at both ends was a disaster.

The only absolute I've seen from Jsaq in calling for Lavi's removal is pointing to his absolute inability to find an effective gameplan against the Rags and Devils. I find it absolutely frustrating, too.
- BulliesPhan87

im not ripping the guy at all....i agree with him aboslutely....


if you cant beat teams in your own division your likely never going to win a cup..he has a point there.

Simon Gagne. Justin Williams. Mike Richards.....

We could go on and on. The Flyers have shown they are pretty good at drafting first round talent.

Heck, even Downie was a decent pick at the back end of his draft year.
- johndewar

Jeff Carter, Peter Forsberg, and Dainus Zubrus too. Too bad the only solid defenseman they've drafted as a first rounder in the last decade is now in Anaheim...but I'd still make the trade 13 days a week.

From the CHL/juniors guys I follow, the consensus seems to be that after Seth Jones, they'd rank the D-men like this: Nurse, Ristolainen, Pulock, Zadorov and Morrissey.
- Jsaquella

Doing a log of reading on prospects now. Found this

11. Darnell Nurse - D - Soo Greyhounds (OHL) - 6-3, 185 - PR: 25
The physical game always stands out with Nurse. He's not going to be an offensive guy at the next level, but he has shown improvement in that side of his game. He is relentless on defense. One scout said every team wants a guy who plays like Nurse, citing his aggressiveness and abrasiveness.

8. Rasmus Ristolainen - D - TPS (SML) - 6-3, 207 - PR: 7
Ristolainen's mobility and puck-moving skills really stand out with his pro-ready frame. He has shown improvement in his second professional season and looks to have another gear to get to. With such a strong forward class, Ristolainen could drop on draft day, but his wide array of tools on the back end might be too attractive to pass up.

10. Ryan Pulock - D - Brandon Wheat Kings (WHL) - 6-0, 209 - PR: 11
Though Pulock has been injured, his stock has held pretty steady from the beginning of the year. He has good two-way capabilities, and his offensive upside is truly an attractive trait. He has a good all-around game but could use some smoothing out over time. Scouts like his character and hockey sense.

12. Nikita Zadorov - D - London Knights (OHL) - 6-5, 229 - PR: 17
The behemoth defenseman has all the qualities that NHL scouts drool over. His size is unrivaled among blueliners in this draft. For a big guy, he moves really well and has sound defensive awareness. One scout said he would like to see Zadorov show more consistency in his physical game and bring the same compete level every night, but the pro upside is evident.

17. Josh Morrissey - D - Prince Albert Raiders (WHL) - 6-0, 183 - PR: 24
Morrissey might not have the best size for a defenseman, but his skating is at an elite level and is a big reason why he has gotten so much first-round buzz. He has solid offensive tools, and his defensive game has improved in his draft year, which is helping improve his stock.

I like Ristolainen's size and puck moving ability based on this scouting report.

here is the link if anyone cares
http://www.cbssports.com/...-board-seth-jones-is-no-1

And the skies have......opened.....

And the ground we stood on shook....

Thunder came roaring out of the sky....

And there it appeared on my browser....another logical post by jsaq....


(but admitted youve been calling for his head like the rest of us four year olds)

- Philly1980

Yes, he needs to go. But the players have underperformed as well. It's not all his fault, by any stretch.

I don't think the subtraction of Pronger can be over stated. Not saying he'd have cured all the ills, but losing his minutes, and ability at both ends was a disaster.
- Hextall271

Here's my thing with Pronger, he is a very special defenseman, that only a handful of teams are privileged enough to have one of said rarity. If losing Pronger is so disastrous, that it totally tanks what Lavy is doing, then it further indicts him to be removed.

im not ripping the guy at all....i agree with him aboslutely....


if you cant beat teams in your own division your likely never going to win a cup..he has a point there.
- Philly1980

Absolutely

I don't think the subtraction of Pronger can be over stated. Not saying he'd have cured all the ills, but losing his minutes, and ability at both ends was a disaster.
- Hextall271

They didn't have Pronger for most of last season, and honestly, he missed most of the season before.

Jeff Carter, Peter Forsberg, and Dainus Zubrus too. Too bad the only solid defenseman they've drafted as a first rounder in the last decade is now in Anaheim...but I'd still make the trade 13 days a week.
- jmatchett

The point about defenseman is well made. I saw a point that someone made about the last defenseman who was drafted by the Flyers to play with the team for any prolonged period of time. The answer was Chris Therien.

But drafting forwards in the first round? The Flyers seem OK with that.

It's the rest of the draft and developing non-forwards that they need to get better with.