Bill places blame on everyone... However, I think its more of Homer and Lavy not being on the same page. If Lavy had the right personnel, they'd be doing better then now. However, If Homer's squad were playing a different system (other than Lavy's), they'd be doing better than now.

So, I can't look at trading anyone - until Homer and Lavy sort this out. Coburn is a good defenseman that I'm happy with - he can play in Lavy's system / he's not the problem. Yet, if the right trade came along, I wouldn't care if we shipped him off.

Also, everyone seems to think prospects are the solution. Sure, if you want to wait a few years to win. Prospects (especially defense and goalies) need time. A rookie forward blends in more and their mistakes are not noticed. So, if you want to win next year - UFA or a trade is the only way.
- leon neon

fire lavy - trade Briere

A lot of us were here in 2006-07. Except BulliesPhan87. He was following the Senators that year.


- Flyskippy

Capital City Bullies, represent!

Exactly. Prospects are cute and all but they aren't the answer to the near-term issues. Sure, use your picks wisely, but nobody should expect that whoever is drafted this season will help one iota in the next 2-3 years.
- Scoob

I have no issue with adding prospects, but I can't agree to a wholesale change where numerous guys are dealt away for prospects.

This team needs to retool, not rebuild.

I agree he's not the problem per say, but taking into terms his contract is he the solution? That is TBD imo.
- PLindbergh31

Of course it's still TBD because everywhere else this team is a cluster frank. Meanwhile I'm prepared to say that yes, he is the solution because I don't think he's the problem.

I agree he's not the problem per say, but taking into terms his contract is he the solution? That is TBD imo.
- PLindbergh31

I would definitely wait another year before making that determination. He's been a vital plug in an already very leaky dam.

I have no issue with adding prospects, but I can't agree to a wholesale change where numerous guys are dealt away for prospects.

This team needs to retool, not rebuild.
- Jsaquella

Agreed. And with the cap situation next year I don't see much possibility for big moves anyway.

I used to feel that way. I value Couturier very highly, especially from a defensive standpoint. His ability to take defensive zone draws, play the pivot on the top PK unit and generally help alleviate those duties from Giroux are huge.

And his overall potential is to add 50-70 points/season on top of that eventually.

But I also feel like you can find defensive specialists to plug in, especially if you have quality offensive centers on the roster already like Giroux, B. Schenn (potential) and Briere (fading).

If you can acquire a defenseman as talented, both offensively and defensively, as Subban I would trade Couturier for him.
- bradleyc4

OEL as well?

Boom. Bryz is not the problem here.
- Scoob

Wouldn't go that far. OEL and Yandle are both better than any defenseman on the Flyers roster. Timmo (at this stage of his career) would be a #3 on that team.

MJL is right though in that Phoenix plays a much better team defense game but even when the Flyers were winning games, their team defense was not as good as Phoenix and is unlikely to be as good any time in the near future. Bryz will never have a team in Philly play as well defensively in front of him as he saw in Phoenix.

I would definitely wait another year before making that determination. He's been a vital plug in an already very leaky dam.
- BulliesPhan87

I agree. Hopefully Briere heals up and can be bought out this summer, give Bryzgalov next year with a retooled roster to see if there is improvement.

I agree he's not the problem per say, but taking into terms his contract is he the solution? That is TBD imo.
- PLindbergh31

That's a decision they can make later.

Who knows what will be obtainable in a trade or free agency? The best offer they get for a player in a trade might be a good goalie. Then you have a guy on hand. But right now, the FA class looks weak and it's no given you can get a goalie.

Not only that, but how long before they're really ready to make a difference, even if they can develop them?

Not bringing back Carle and Jagr, is not the reason why this team is in the mess it's in. And drafting Jones or any other defenseman in the Draft, isn't the solution either. Not that wouldn't help by adding a future peice. But this team needs a radical wholesale change in how it plays the game. Not a radical change in it's roster. It should be a playoff team. It is not. Now lookng towards the missing peices that it's going to need to be a Cup contender, is a separate conversation from what ails this team currently.
- MJL

Carle and Jagr wouldn't be the answer that turns them in to contenders, but they're better individuals than several on this team, and would therefore have some positive effect on the team. Maybe they win 2-3 of those 3rd period blown games and we're talking about at least fighting for a spot as opposed to fighting for the #1 pick.

What are the prices of Briere, Hartnell, Talbot and L Shenn?

To me those guys are not core guys moving forward for the Flyers and could get you some good picks/prospects to rebuild with. Take a few seasons of growing pains and don't give up on Coutourier, Simmonds, Giroux or Vorachek. These guys will be studs for you guys for a long time!

You D is a huge problem though. Personally, I'd love the Sens to trade a couple of our D prospects for Briere or if possible Coutourier, but that would have to be a very expensive package.

Ideally, Sens 1st 2013, Weircoch and Da Costa for Coutourier... He would look great with Zibby and Silf
- riceroni

Luke Schenn is absolutely a core player going forward. And unless the return was very high, I wouldn't trade Hartnell either. And I'm not real interested in trading Talbot either.

That's a decision they can make later.

Who knows what will be obtainable in a trade or free agency? The best offer they get for a player in a trade might be a good goalie. Then you have a guy on hand. But right now, the FA class looks weak and it's no given you can get a goalie.
- Jsaquella

I'm with you. I give Bryzgalov next year with hopefully an improved team around him and evaluate after next season.

Luke Schenn has played pretty well for the Flyers. He's had some rough spots. He's learning to not chase the hits as much and his skating and passing have not been an issue. I think he picked up a lot of bad habits and they need to be fixed, but the tools are there.

I have no issue in moving Briere, if at all possible. Hartnell's a wild card, because he got hurt early and then returned a couple weeks before schedule. I really feel that he, and others, are playing with injuries that are limiting them. I'd listen to offers for Hartnell and Talbot, but wouldn't be in a major hurry to move them.

I like the package you propose, but for Couturier, I'd want a 20 minute a night, all situations defenseman that can play at a high level. I realize that's a lot, but I feel couturier has been criminally misused this year
- Jsaquella

Ya, my package was still a little weak... it was based on the down year he is having at the moment. He will be a stud though for sure in a few years from now. If another team can poach him off your roster for a couple of B prospects and a late 1st that would be something!

Sens will not trade Cowen or Ceci who are going to be real studs down the line. Weircoch is having a great year but he will get lost in the shuffle once Karlsson and Cowen get back next season and once Ceci is ready for the NHL. Our other D prospects are Gryba (shutdown type) and Borweki... nothing to really jump all over... We do have a lot of forward prospects and young forwards playing in the NHL though that will be available, Da Costa, Prince, Pageau, Hoffman, Greening, Smith and Classen who are available for the right price.

Agreed. And with the cap situation next year I don't see much possibility for big moves anyway.
- Scoob

Well they could probably move Coburn for a late first rounder right now. If Meszaros isn't hurt he could probably fetch picks, too. They could nuke Briere and Bryz with compliance buyouts. That would create cap room, but it would also create holes and would lead to big moves.

I just don't think they should do this.

I used to feel that way. I value Couturier very highly, especially from a defensive standpoint. His ability to take defensive zone draws, play the pivot on the top PK unit and generally help alleviate those duties from Giroux are huge.

And his overall potential is to add 50-70 points/season on top of that eventually.

But I also feel like you can find defensive specialists to plug in, especially if you have quality offensive centers on the roster already like Giroux, B. Schenn (potential) and Briere (fading).

If you can acquire a defenseman as talented, both offensively and defensively, as Subban I would trade Couturier for him.
- bradleyc4

Honestly, not much to disagree with here. All reasonable thoughts. I just would rather not trade Couturier if at all possible.

As for Bryz, it depends on what the organization wants to do.

If you want to do a true rebuild, a la Pittsburgh or Edmonton, and build through the draft for the future, then by all means, buy out Bryz; 9-year deal or not, if you don't expect to be a true contender for the next 2-3 years, it's probably time to try a young goalie (didn't we have one of them?) and hope that you're able to get one that pans out.
However, if you want to try to re-tool a la the 2007 offseason, then you keep him and hope you can make a strong, deep run. It all depends on how this team views itself.

That's a decision they can make later.

Who knows what will be obtainable in a trade or free agency? The best offer they get for a player in a trade might be a good goalie. Then you have a guy on hand. But right now, the FA class looks weak and it's no given you can get a goalie.
- Jsaquella

Bob's an RFA. Homer can offer sheet him if he's inclined. Barring a huge meltdown for the rest of this season he's looking a good payday.

Just saying he's an available goalie.

Carle and Jagr wouldn't be the answer that turns them in to contenders, but they're better individuals than several on this team, and would therefore have some positive effect on the team. Maybe they win 2-3 of those 3rd period blown games and we're talking about at least fighting for a spot as opposed to fighting for the #1 pick.
- jmatchett

In my opinion, neither of those 2 players are that good that they would make a significant difference to the current team. Plus, you have to look at all the variables. Adding them is 9M or so in Cap space. I was as big a fan of Carle here as anyone. But having him as your lead defenseman in the future, is miscasting him as a player. As a #2 puck moving defenseman, he's a good player. Expecting him to be anything else is setting him up for failure. All Carle would have been here with the current level of play, is one of the main scapegoats.

Ya, my package was still a little weak... it was based on the down year he is having at the moment. He will be a stud though for sure in a few years from now. If another team can poach him off your roster for a couple of B prospects and a late 1st that would be something!

Sens will not trade Cowen or Ceci who are going to be real studs down the line. Weircoch is having a great year but he will get lost in the shuffle once Karlsson and Cowen get back next season and once Ceci is ready for the NHL. Our other D prospects are Gryba (shutdown type) and Borweki... nothing to really jump all over... We do have a lot of forward prospects and young forwards playing in the NHL though that will be available, Da Costa, Prince, Pageau, Hoffman, Greening, Smith and Classen who are available for the right price.
- riceroni

Understood. I agree on Cowan and Ceci. Both could be top pair defensemen in a few years. I really liked Ceci at the draft last year.

A lot of Couturier's down year, IMO, is coming from how he's used. He's at 36% for Offensive zone starts, he's constantly going up against the other team's best offensive players and he's spending most of his ice time with guys who aren't going to put up a lot of points.

The other issue with Couturier is, he gets benched every time he makes a mistake with the puck. It's got him at the point where he's worried about making mistakes, which leads to more mistakes.

I don't trade Couturier lightly, because I still see a kid who will be a stud.

I don't think anyone expected a serious Cup contender out of this team. But to expect a playoff team, a 5-8 seed was not expecting too much.

This is a group of players with talent. There are player that are underperforming. There are players that are making really horrible decisions. But there's a lot of players that can reasonably be expected to rebound and return to their past levels of play.

They need changes, but the biggest changes need to come from within. The younger players have to continue to work hard and use the experience of this season get them to where they can be.

Veterans like Hartnell and Coburn are fully capable of returning to form. I don't know if Hartnell's issues are from returning while still hurt or what, but he's capable of returning to form. Coburn can be outstanding as part of a good pair. He's not an anchor type defenseman. But with a good partner, Coburn can thrive.

I feel that a lot of players were used wrong, but at the same time the execution wasn't there. They need, regardless of system, another defenseman, and a good one. They need a good, solid veteran center who can win faceoffs and play a defensive role. They need guys like Hartnell to rebound and they need guys like Simmonds to be more consistent and provide some offense at 5 on 5.
- Jsaquella

Perhaps Cup Contender was a little strong. Actually, after reading your comments and MJLs comments, perhaps Homer saw two different paths. If they could get Parise/Suter/Weber - some combination of those three - and Bryz regained form they would be a cup contender.

The other path - without any marquee free agents - would take longer. Nobody really expected Rusty or Gervais or Foster to put them over the top. These are 1 year throw-away deals. I'm sure Holmgren wasn't expecting this much of a regression, but at least he didn't panic (then) and trade for an aging veteran with just enough talent to cost Coots or Simmonds or Read.

I guess we'll see based on what he does next. I agree with your needs. I just think that that dman will be a problem. It's either a reclamation project, a 34+ yo guy that will still cost one of the youngsters, or a young talent that will gut the team.

But it is also clear that after the season they need a coaching change and attitude adjustment.

I used to feel that way. I value Couturier very highly, especially from a defensive standpoint. His ability to take defensive zone draws, play the pivot on the top PK unit and generally help alleviate those duties from Giroux are huge.

And his overall potential is to add 50-70 points/season on top of that eventually.

But I also feel like you can find defensive specialists to plug in, especially if you have quality offensive centers on the roster already like Giroux, B. Schenn (potential) and Briere (fading).

If you can acquire a defenseman as talented, both offensively and defensively, as Subban I would trade Couturier for him.
- bradleyc4

Brad, great post

Bob's an RFA. Homer can offer sheet him if he's inclined. Barring a huge meltdown for the rest of this season he's looking a good payday.

Just saying he's an available goalie.
- Flyers_01

I want to avoid that kind of thing. It's an ugly process and it ties you up for a week and you lose out on other options.

I wouldn't make a goalie a priority, but if one is included as part of a trade, it opens a door.

Honestly, not much to disagree with here. All reasonable thoughts. I just would rather not trade Couturier if at all possible.
- MJL

In order to get a potential stud dman you are trading Schenn, Vorachek, or Couturier, and maybe adding to that package. What is your argument for trading or keeping each one?

I'm with you. I give Bryzgalov next year with hopefully an improved team around him and evaluate after next season.
- PLindbergh31

He's got to avoid the bad goals, though.

Last night, 3-2 game and event though it shouldn't have been close it was.

And yeah, Coburn and Mesz looked awful on it, but that wrap around has to be stopped. That kind of goal is exactly the kind of goal you spend franchise cash on a goalie to stop.

The sad thing is, I think Bryz cares more and is more bang on in his assessments and comments than 90% of the rest of the team. But he has to be better than he's been.