But I'm going to assume that you'd be open to anyone being moved, because it could improve the team going forward.
What I'm getting is let's move Coburn. Why? Well because I don't like him or am tired of him. Not how a team should, nor is it how the operate.
- MJL

I think that the Flyers should be open to making any player moves that they feel will improve the team's chances of success. If they feel that they can move Braydon Coburn for better fits, then do it.

Similarly, as crazy as it may sound, if they feel that Claude Giroux can bring in a player who will help team's chances of winning, so be it. Not gonna happen, but if Shero loses his mind and offers Crosby and Letang for Giroux, you do it.

That movie is so good I can ignore the fact that the lefty hitting, southerner Joe Jackson is played by the righty hitting, city-fied Ray Liotta..
- Jsaquella

True. Casting was either a little lazy or thought no one would notice. Obviously, they were wrong.

Agree, still a great movie.

But I'm going to assume that you'd be open to anyone being moved, because it could improve the team going forward.
What I'm getting is let's move Coburn. Why? Well because I don't like him or am tired of him. Not how a team should, nor is it how the operate.
- MJL

Regarding Coburn and Hartnell.

You may not be able to replace them immediately. Directly in terms of some of the things they do provide WHEN on their game. Where for me they come into play is I want that kind of chronic inconsistency and stupidity off the team. In time if need be. I want the organization to find talent in the draft, and sorround it with solid veteran players that play with the right attitude, consistency and are good role models.

I do not want guys like Coburn and Hartnell being the kind of players the kids of this team are sorrounded by and are aupposed to look up to. They are highly paid veteran players.

The Flyers may take a bit of a hit losing both, even if they will get pieces back. In the long term, and forming a culture of consistency with hard work and minimal stupidity the organization cannot tie itself to players who are chronically inconsistent.

As I said before, I want them to find good talent in the draft. They have some good pieces already. Sorround it with the right kind of players, again as stated before. Let them infuse, and let the kids grow in that kind of culture. Not to be sorrounded by veterans who you never know how they will play. Just my thoughts.

True. Casting was either a little lazy or thought no one would notice. Obviously, they were wrong.

Agree, still a great movie.
- 77rams

I get bugged by stuff like that. Hunt for Red October, where Jones the sonar guy is called seaman Jones, despite having the insignia of a 2nd class petty officer drives me nuts. Also the Chief of the boat seemingly not knowing what a Crazy Ivan was...Chief of the Boat or COB is the senior enlisted man on the sub. He's going to be familiar with what a Crazy Ivan is.

Regarding Coburn and Hartnell.

You may not be able to replace them immediately. Directly in terms of some of the things they do provide WHEN on their game. Where for me they come into play is I want that kind of chronic inconsistency and stupidity off the team. In time if need be. I want the organization to find talent in the draft, and sorround it with solid veteran players that play with the right attitude, consistency and are good role models.

I do not want guys like Coburn and Hartnell being the kind of players the kids of this team are sorrounded by and are aupposed to look up to. They are highly paid veteran players.

The Flyers may take a bit of a hit losing both, even if they will get pieces back. In the long term, and forming a culture of consistency with hard work and minimal stupidity the organization cannot tie itself to players who are chronically inconsistent.

As I said before, I want them to find good talent in the draft. They have some good pieces already. Sorround it with the right kind of players, again as stated before. Let them infuse, and let the kids grow in that kind of culture. Not to be sorrounded by veterans who you never know how they will play. Just my thoughts.
- flyer_nutter

Hartnell's production will always be inconsistent. He's kind of a wacky player. He doesn't really do any one thing well, he's a pretty bad skater, and he just looks awkward a lot. Yet somehow, he's a pretty safe bet for 20-25 goals per year (this year aside). Yet I don't think his heart or effort should be questioned. I think he gives it his all every game, he just doesn't always have the skill to create chances by himself when other players are off. He's a perfect example of how bad this season has been, but I don't think he's a top reason why.

Just to add.

I think the Flyers have some kids, and will hopefully draft some good kids. Those kids have the talent, but they need to be guided the right way.

I truly believe that if the Flyers stay on track with a model of drafting talented youth, and sorrounding it with veterans who can show the kids how to play the right way, it will pay off down the line.

Dealing certain players in fair deals might not bring back immediate statistical results, but to me this is all about forming the right mindset, culture and identity. Who fits that, and who does not.

Regarding Coburn and Hartnell.

You may not be able to replace them immediately. Directly in terms of some of the things they do provide WHEN on their game. Where for me they come into play is I want that kind of chronic inconsistency and stupidity off the team. In time if need be. I want the organization to find talent in the draft, and sorround it with solid veteran players that play with the right attitude, consistency and are good role models.

I do not want guys like Coburn and Hartnell being the kind of players the kids of this team are sorrounded by and are aupposed to look up to. They are highly paid veteran players.

The Flyers may take a bit of a hit losing both, even if they will get pieces back. In the long term, and forming a culture of consistency with hard work and minimal stupidity the organization cannot tie itself to players who are chronically inconsistent.

As I said before, I want them to find good talent in the draft. They have some good pieces already. Sorround it with the right kind of players, again as stated before. Let them infuse, and let the kids grow in that kind of culture. Not to be sorrounded by veterans who you never know how they will play. Just my thoughts.
- flyer_nutter

I understand your point about culture change. I've heard for years that the Flyers are talented, but dumb.

And Coburn and Hartnell both suffer more than most from the occasional dumb mistake.

But both are good players when utilized right. I would weight the return vs the culture change

Hartnell's production will always be inconsistent. He's kind of a wacky player. He doesn't really do any one thing well, he's a pretty bad skater, and he just looks awkward a lot. Yet somehow, he's a pretty safe bet for 20-25 goals per year (this year aside). Yet I don't think his heart or effort should be questioned. I think he gives it his all every game, he just doesn't always have the skill to create chances by himself when other players are off. He's a perfect example of how bad this season has been, but I don't think he's a top reason why.
- jmatchett383

In my eyes, Hartnell has put up decent stats.

However throughout his career he has been chronically inconsistent. In many departments of his game, right down to effort. The stupidity and bad penalties have been a trend. As I said in the post above this one, I dont want the kids, or the future of this team sorrounded by that.

Sorround them more with the attitude that Lappy/Jagr/Pronger brought. Eliminate those who do not fit that. Its about the long term future outlook for me.

Dan Tencer says the Oilers are close to re-signing Ladislav Smid.

re: Subban responses

I agree it's largely a maturing process for him. I also think that some players just bring attitude, and it's really not necessarily a bad thing. Hockey is a competitive sport, after all. As long as you're not getting burned, sometimes you have to play with a bit of fire.

Sorry to interrupt, but my friend just sent me a picture of my wife's present from last night, and I'm still too pumped to not show it off (sorry for the blurriness):

I understand your point about culture change. I've heard for years that the Flyers are talented, but dumb.

And Coburn and Hartnell both suffer more than most from the occasional dumb mistake.

But both are good players when utilized right. I would weight the return vs the culture change
- Jsaquella

I think without that focus on culture change, nothing else matters. Much like the team getting a direction on what style to play, and sticking with it. Bringing in players that fit that.

The return may not get the Flyers immediate results. At the same time the return will also help. Down the line, I think infusing that right mindset and attitude will be what gets this team to the top. A few years of building through the draft, and sorrounding the young nucleus with players like Morrow/Jagr, essentially players that bring that attitude that Pronger/Lappy brought, is the way to go imo.

Otherwise they will continue to flirt with inconsistency, hoping the best players, show up on a given night, or a given season. For this organization to be a consistent elite team for more than some hot stretches, they need to fix that culture first and foremost.

I think that the Flyers should be open to making any player moves that they feel will improve the team's chances of success. If they feel that they can move Braydon Coburn for better fits, then do it.

Similarly, as crazy as it may sound, if they feel that Claude Giroux can bring in a player who will help team's chances of winning, so be it. Not gonna happen, but if Shero loses his mind and offers Crosby and Letang for Giroux, you do it.
- jmatchett383

Absolutely. You make any trade that you feel makes the team better. That's a legitimate reason to make a deal.

re: Subban responses

I agree it's largely a maturing process for him. I also think that some players just bring attitude, and it's really not necessarily a bad thing. Hockey is a competitive sport, after all. As long as you're not getting burned, sometimes you have to play with a bit of fire.
- BulliesPhan87

Absolutely. That cockiness just to use a term, is sometimes what makes a player who he is.

Also, in today's news that isn't really news, Crosby is out indefinitely with a broken jaw.
I kinda knew that when I saw 2 of his teeth flying out of his mouth.

Absolutely. That cockiness just to use a term, is sometimes what makes a player who he is.
- MJL

Having Markov actually playing, and being able to mentor the kid is huge this season.

Sorry to interrupt, but my friend just sent me a picture of my wife's present from last night, and I'm still too pumped to not show it off (sorry for the blurriness):


- jmatchett383

That's great

In my eyes, Hartnell has put up decent stats.

However throughout his career he has been chronically inconsistent. In many departments of his game, right down to effort. The stupidity and bad penalties have been a trend. As I said in the post above this one, I dont want the kids, or the future of this team sorrounded by that.

Sorround them more with the attitude that Lappy/Jagr/Pronger brought. Eliminate those who do not fit that. Its about the long term future outlook for me.
- flyer_nutter

I think in my opinion, you're in the neighborhood. But I think you're looking at Hartnell's faults, in the wrong way. As sort of being malicious.

Here's Hartnell's issue in my opinion. When things are going well. When the team is playing well. When Hartnell's line is playing well. He is a very valuable piece to this team. But when the team is struggling, or he is struggling. He tends to try and make something happen, and tends to make bad choices. His intent is to be a leader, and to try and spark both himself and the team. When he's not scoring or generating chances, he tries to help the team in other ways. He's just not good at that. But you have to be very careful about getting rid of Hartnell. Because you need to have a lot of the qualities that he possesses.

I think without that focus on culture change, nothing else matters. Much like the team getting a direction on what style to play, and sticking with it. Bringing in players that fit that.

The return may not get the Flyers immediate results. At the same time the return will also help. Down the line, I think infusing that right mindset and attitude will be what gets this team to the top. A few years of building through the draft, and sorrounding the young nucleus with players like Morrow/Jagr, essentially players that bring that attitude that Pronger/Lappy brought, is the way to go imo.

Otherwise they will continue to flirt with inconsistency, hoping the best players, show up on a given night, or a given season. For this organization to be a consistent elite team for more than some hot stretches, they need to fix that culture first and foremost.
- flyer_nutter

The culture change can come from the coach and organization, too. Not just from player changes.

One thing that is an issue, and has been, is a lack of accountability. Guys who have never been held accountable for their mistakes tend to repeat the mistakes

Absolutely. You make any trade that you feel makes the team better. That's a legitimate reason to make a deal.
- MJL

I'll just throw something out there. Its hard to say because none of us see the future, and I wouldnt be making moves till summer and things are more clear.

Would you be willing to do a scenerio of something like this:

In: Morrow, Jagr, Giordano, Boyd Gordon, depth D
Out: Coburn, Hartnell, Meszaros, Fedetenko


Its thrown together quick, and I realise the scenerio could change. I think it shows what I'd kind of be after for what I say bringing in the right kind of players to sorround the young core.

The culture change can come from the coach and organization, too. Not just from player changes.

One thing that is an issue, and has been, is a lack of accountability. Guys who have never been held accountable for their mistakes tend to repeat the mistakes
- Jsaquella

From top to bottom definately.

From top to bottom definately.
- flyer_nutter

It's kind of my view with Bryzgalov and the CBO's. I want to see him, behind a team playing responsible defense, with a full camp and good support.

Team needs to foster that stuff again. It used to, back in the day. Get back to where you once belong.

Would you be willing to do a scenerio of something like this:

In: Morrow, Jagr, Giordano, Boyd Gordon, depth D
Out: Coburn, Hartnell, Meszaros, Fedetenko

- flyer_nutter

Two questions:
1. Do you have a plan to replace Jagr/Hartnell after next season with 20+ goals on that wing from an as-of-yet-unnamed player?
2. Is the depth D named Foster, Lilja or Gervias?

I think in my opinion, you're in the neighborhood. But I think you're looking at Hartnell's faults, in the wrong way. As sort of being malicious.

Here's Hartnell's issue in my opinion. When things are going well. When the team is playing well. When Hartnell's line is playing well. He is a very valuable piece to this team. But when the team is struggling, or he is struggling. He tends to try and make something happen, and tends to make bad choices. His intent is to be a leader, and to try and spark both himself and the team. When he's not scoring or generating chances, he tries to help the team in other ways. He's just not good at that. But you have to be very careful about getting rid of Hartnell. Because you need to have a lot of the qualities that he possesses.
- MJL

I'll really agree with you that the things he does bring when on his game, really help a top team.

The Flyers may not be able to replace that immediately. I would trade off his immediate production (WHEN he is on his game), to setting a better culture for the kids and them not being sorrounded by such chronic inconsistency. The organization I feel shouldnt tie itself, and rely on players like that to lead the team. I also wouldnt deal him for back lane betty, under the right deal of course.

I'll just throw something out there. Its hard to say because none of us see the future, and I wouldnt be making moves till summer and things are more clear.

Would you be willing to do a scenerio of something like this:

In: Morrow, Jagr, Giordano, Boyd Gordon, depth D
Out: Coburn, Hartnell, Meszaros, Fedetenko


Its thrown together quick, and I realise the scenerio could change. I think it shows what I'd kind of be after for what I say bringing in the right kind of players to sorround the young core.
- flyer_nutter

With the breakout of Jake I see little need for Jagr back on the team or in the top 6. PP is number 1 in the league without him. Morrow prob wont be cheap and if he is he'll just re-sign with the Pens.

Who replaces Hartnell on the LW?