Shattenkirk is heavily sheltered with off zone starts vs. weak competition. Part of that is a by-product of the talent on their blue line, but the St. Louis coaching staff doesn't trust him with tough minutes yet.

This is even truer for Keith Yandle. They're one dimensional "currently".

Byfuglien isn't as sheltered, but he's a liability defensively and takes the most penalties of any WPG defenseman. He's basically a forward playing defense.
- bradleyc4

Well said. And there's nothing wrong with that. A Coach should use his players properly. And if this team already had it's "Pietrangelo", and had the Cap space, then a player like Yandle or Shattenkirk would be a great fit as a #2 defenseman. But we need a better all around player. Shattenkirk can be used in more situations then Yandle can. The only caveat is that the player I'm looking for, is going to be much harder to get, then a Yandle or a Shattenkirk. That's the conumdrum

There is really ONE element that Buff brings that Read cant. Size.
- jak521

You forgot weak defensive play. Read doesn't have that either.

Well said. And there's nothing wrong with that. A Coach should use his players properly. And if this team already had it's "Pietrangelo", and had the Cap space, then a player like Yandle or Shattenkirk would be a great fit as a #2 defenseman. But we need a better all around player. Shattenkirk can be used in more situations then Yandle can. The only caveat is that the player I'm looking for, is going to be much harder to get, then a Yandle or a Shattenkirk. That's the conumdren
- MJL

Yep, and the teams that have the Pietrangelo's and OEL's aren't trading them for Couturier anyway.

The Flyers have shown recently that they can win with what they've got. They just have to play a less aggressive, more team-oriented style of hockey to combat not having a true top pairing on defense.

They still have 5 quality guys in Timonen, Coburn, Meszaros, Schenn and Grossmann.

Well said. And there's nothing wrong with that. A Coach should use his players properly. And if this team already had it's "Pietrangelo", and had the Cap space, then a player like Yandle or Shattenkirk would be a great fit as a #2 defenseman. But we need a better all around player. Shattenkirk can be used in more situations then Yandle can. The only caveat is that the player I'm looking for, is going to be much harder to get, then a Yandle or a Shattenkirk. That's the conumdren
- MJL

conundrum?

Yep, and the teams that have the Pietrangelo's and OEL's aren't trading them for Couturier anyway.

The Flyers have shown recently that they can win with what they've got. They just have to play a less aggressive, more team-oriented style of hockey to combat not having a true top pairing on defense.

They still have 5 quality guys in Timonen, Coburn, Meszaros, Schenn and Grossmann.
- bradleyc4

do you think lavy will be able to stay with this style in the long term?

Cooter is too young to put a cap on his potential IMO
- JFlyers00

Yeah, projecting the potential (cap) is tough to do one way or another..it could go either way...that's why, as much as I like the kid, I'd take the known quantity in Yandle/Shatty/Buff over the "potential" upside that may or may not be fulfilled in a player like Coots. Honestly, at their current fair value, I doubt the respective GMs would trade those players for just Coots straight up...but I would do it (from a Flyers perspective).

It is likely that one of those young prospects (Coots, Schenn, Possibly the 1st rd pick this year) will be moved at some point in just such a trade for a D man. Some people are quick to throw Read into the trade over Coots or Schenn but I'm not so sure I'd do that... it's kind of ironic in that Read is more of an all around impact player than either of them at this point..but then again, he is a few years older and due to be a UFA after next season where Schenn and Coots are RFAs. I hope we can sign Read to and extension next season...no doubt he's due for a nice raise...(I fear) he's going to get Simmonds type money (circa $4 mil/yr).

do you think lavy will be able to stay with this style in the long term?
- Crimsoninja

I don't he ever has.

Maybe he's starting to evolve.

Maybe it's just a knee-jerk reaction to having Lauridsen, Huskins, Gervais and Gustafsson all playing at the same time. And he'll revert back once his blueline is healthy again.

I don't know. But if he wants to stick around, I think he has to. Unless Holmgren pulls off a miracle this off-season.

I don't think Couturier is even old enough to drink yet.

How can we know what his ceiling is?
- johndewar

Agreed, we can't really know how good he is until he bucks the Dry Island rule.

do you think lavy will be able to stay with this style in the long term?
- Crimsoninja

He's going to have to. I think this is the merging of his system with Paddocks defensive strategy. Honestly, I think that that has been the struggle all season. Homer brought in Paddock to help Lavi with the defense... and how easy is it to merge two systems when you have almost no time to practice them? Power plays and penalty kills are all Lavy, and look how they have worked out

I don't he ever has.

Maybe he's starting to evolve.

Maybe it's just a knee-jerk reaction to having Lauridsen, Huskins, Gervais and Gustafsson all playing at the same time. And he'll revert back once his blueline is healthy again.

I don't know. But if he wants to stick around, I think he has to. Unless Holmgren pulls off a miracle this off-season.
- bradleyc4

i hope he does
really would like to see him succeed here

Agreed, we can't really know how good he is until he bucks the Dry Island rule.
- BulliesPhan87

LOL! I didn't even think of that when I wrote that.

Quick....someone tell Couturier that there are no bars in Philadelphia.

I don't he ever has.

Maybe he's starting to evolve.

Maybe it's just a knee-jerk reaction to having Lauridsen, Huskins, Gervais and Gustafsson all playing at the same time. And he'll revert back once his blueline is healthy again.

I don't know. But if he wants to stick around, I think he has to. Unless Holmgren pulls off a miracle this off-season.
- bradleyc4

Problem solved:

Problem solved:

- BringBack25

Miracle Max is our new head coach? Cool!

Miracle Max is our new head coach? Cool!
- FlyersGrace

"It just so happens that your playoffs hopes here are only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive."

Miracle Max is our new head coach? Cool!
- FlyersGrace

pretty sure that's snider

Miracle Max is our new head coach? Cool!
- FlyersGrace

Well, since our team is not completely dead, only 'mostly dead', he seems like the perfect fit!


EDIT: sigh...laught

EDIT2: Leight is no longer permitted since we have finally ridded ourselves of that sieve.

conundrum?
- wilsonecho91

Typo. Thanks

Shattenkirk is heavily sheltered with off zone starts vs. weak competition. Part of that is a by-product of the talent on their blue line, but the St. Louis coaching staff doesn't trust him with tough minutes yet.

This is even truer for Keith Yandle. They're one dimensional "currently".

Byfuglien isn't as sheltered, but he's a liability defensively and takes the most penalties of any WPG defenseman. He's basically a forward playing defense.
- bradleyc4

Shattenkirk plays a fair amount of PK time, as well as PP time and ES...so he's not really one dimensional. Not that he doesn't have his shortcomings, but he's a pretty good overall D man especially at age 24 with room to improve. Yandle is more of an offensive specialist, very good in transition, takes a lot of shots and can QB the pp...but in games I 've watched, it's not like he's some big defensive liability out there. Buff does lean decidedly toward offesnse, but again, with the D corps we have, we can complement such a player by pairing with a guy who stays home more often than not.

I see you didn't have an answer for Couturier currently being mediocre defensively and poor on faceoffs. So, we'd be trading a prospect with potential that isn't currently doing all that much at either end for an established impact, top-pairing type, young D man, something the team really needs . I'm cool with that. If you're not, that's fine, we can agree to disagree.

I wouldn't do it, either.

Byfuglein is a talented player, but he's got a bit of a lazy streak in him. If he had a good motor, he'd be unstoppable.

Read's a very versatile player. He can play all 3 forward spots, is capable of 20+ goals, good speed, good two way play, solid playmaker, exceptional on the PK, handles a PP point well, extremely good conditioning and work ethic. The only knock I have on Read is his age.
- Jsaquella

But maybe, like Knuble, he gets old older because he has fewer miles on him coming into the league.

I can't help but think, after reading many of the comments in this thread, that the guy we have is always underestimated and the guy we don't have is always overestimated. Flyers are all mutts. Other guys are all purebreds. It just isn't so.

Well, since our team is not completely dead, only 'mostly dead', he seems like the perfect fit!


EDIT: sigh...laught

EDIT2: Leight is no longer permitted since we have finally ridded ourselves of that sieve.
- BringBack25

Leight will never die. Laught has yet to prove he has the same level of fail I'm him.

Shattenkirk plays a fair amount of PK time, as well as PP time and ES...so he's not really one dimensional. Not that he doesn't have his shortcomings, but he's a pretty good overall D man especially at age 24 with room to improve. Yandle is more of an offensive specialist, very good in transition and can QB the pp...but in games I 've watched, it's not like he's some big defensive liability out there. Buff does lean decidedly toward offesnse, but again, with the D corps we have, we can complement such a player by pairing with a guy who stays home more often than not.

I see you didn't have an answer for Couturier currently being mediocre defensively and poor on faceoffs. So, we'd be trading a prospect with potential that isn't currently doing all that much at either end for an established impact, top-pairing type, young D man, something the team really needs . I'm cool with that. If you're not, that's fine, we can agree to disagree.
- exlund

Trading Shattenkirk for any of the young players is basically trading potential. It comes down to what you value more as a franchise and to me the Flyers absolutely stink at drafting d-men compared to forwards.

He's going to have to. I think this is the merging of his system with Paddocks defensive strategy. Honestly, I think that that has been the struggle all season. Homer brought in Paddock to help Lavi with the defense... and how easy is it to merge two systems when you have almost no time to practice them? Power plays and penalty kills are all Lavy, and look how they have worked out
- TrentKlatt

I don't even know that it's Paddock's defensive strategy. The Flyers are playing a simple 2-1-2 forecheck versus their normal Press forecheck. They have a lot better positioning to defend on breakouts. Have a better neutral zone presence. And are therefore facing a lot less odd man breaks. And spending less time in their own end.

But maybe, like Knuble, he gets old older because he has fewer miles on him coming into the league.

I can't help but think, after reading many of the comments in this thread, that the guy we have is always underestimated and the guy we don't have is always overestimated. Flyers are all mutts. Other guys are all purebreds. It just isn't so.
- bodiva88

Very possible that the lower mileage on Read leads to a longer career or prime.

Our guys suck, didn't you know?

Trading Shattenkirk for any of the young players is basically trading potential. It comes down to what you value more as a franchise and to me the Flyers absolutely stink at drafting d-men compared to forwards.
- stveshdy

It's not at all an unreasonable thought to trading one of the Flyers young forwards to improve the defense. In fact, I think it's what they should do. But I want them to make the right deal. And I'm not really interested in trading Couturier for an offensive defenseman. I only trade Couturier for an all situations player. Or one that I think has the potential to be that.

Very possible that the lower mileage on Read leads to a longer career or prime.

Our guys suck, didn't you know?
- Jsaquella

Isn't it amazing how much better the look when they play the right way? And play responsibly defensively? You and I were calling for that change for how long. And this is with Coburn, Meszaros, and Grossmann out of the lineup. What I get a kick out of is when I read that must mean the players in there now, are better. When what it really means is that a team playing the right way, is always better then more talented players, playing as individuals. And playing the wrong way.