Way to focus on one aspect of my point and construct a faulty argument attacking it. Well done.
- wolfhounds

You want a guy who can:

a. "drop the gloves"
b. "Rock the big hit"
c. "Play angry and with some serious 'snarl'?"

That's what Jay Rosehill does. So, does that make him a viable leader candidate?

not Czechie?

(I think I agree with you but it could be a worthy debate)

JV is the team MVP of this lousy season, at least to me
- Marc D

Voracek raised his game to another level this year, definitely.

I'm not sure I agree with your assessment that there's a trend of them bringing in guys who have subpar defensive track records.

Briere, okay. But he was a top-notch even-strength point producer.
Simmonds, okay. But he added some grit and a PP presence.

Who else?

I've seen them add guys who are good defensively -- Gagne, Couturier, Talbot, Fedotenko, Read, Hall, etc.
- bradleyc4

Hartnell and Coburn have been inconsistent in this area for a long time. When they are playing well all in forgotten and big money is given out. Yet they are chronically inconsistent in many parts of their game, and in particular defensive play and effort.

Zherdev, Briere, Brayden Schenn, Knuble and even Voracek who has improved all had pretty big defensive game questions even before arriving to Philadelphia. Just to name a few. This organization hasnt won because of its lack of scoring for a longer time now, its because too many players are sub par defensively to begin with. Or inconsistent to begin with. Or take too many stupid penalties to begin with.

Look: If you want to say Brayden Schenn is a young, developing player, I can get on board with that. It's true.

If you are saying he is a forward deserving of Top 6 minutes RIGHT NOW (not 5 years from now....RIGHT NOW), then I think there is enough of a sample size from this abbreviated season to tell you otherwise.

I'm not hoping they trade him. I hope to watch him develop year after year, buy "
Schenn 10" shirsheys, the whole bit.

But let's not kid ourselves. He's not there yet.
- johndewar

Put him on a line centering Voracek.
He will produce great 2nd line center numbers all season.

(I agree with you though, he was put in a big role this season and he is not there yet, but those games he had Jake earlier he looked tremendous).

Voracek raised his game to another level this year, definitely.
- johndewar

I thought he was, by far, Philadelphia's best player last night. Maybe not saying much, but he was.

So why did Mason really start last nite?

According to 97.5, citing a "solid source", mason was given the start because bryz fell asleep at a team meeting.
- isaiah520

Only we would have a narcoleptic goalie!

This hideous season is bad enough but the Bob thing makes a grown man wanna cry.
- phillydentist

Kinda like watching Richards and Carter tote the cup around...(not that hindsight makes me think either deal was a bad deal when focusing solely on Philly.)

not Czechie?

(I think I agree with you but it could be a worthy debate)

JV is the team MVP of this lousy season, at least to me
- Marc D

Im a big Czechie fan... and said I thought he would take the next step and deserved to be on G's wing, but the 180 that Rinaldo has pulled.. the fact that turned himself into one of the most effective pests in the game while being able to play in multiple situations... draws penalties far more than he takes them and leads the NHL in hits per 60 mins has really made it an easy one for me.

He draws 3.2 penalties per 60 minutes... second only to Patrick Kaleta.

I agree with him...we definitely lack leadership. And veteran does not equal leader.

We're missing a guy like Pronger, Hatcher, Smith, Lindros, Primeau, etc.

It's not our only problem - we don't have a single problem but a big mixture resulting in a molotov cocktail - but it is definitely a problem.
- wolfhounds

One thing that intrigued me. When they were showing the palyers filter out for the 3rd period the only guy with any energy and any attempt to reach out to his teammates was Hall... It was good to see. He hasn't played as much this season so an argument can be made he's fresher, but it was nice to see him give a poop about this team he just got picked up by.

Timonen plays with serious snarl every single shift.

I think you are seriously confusing "leadership" with "pugilism"

Some of the greatest captains to ever play the game were also some of the finest gentlemen. Sackic, Yzerman, Borque, Alfredson, Sundin...
- jak521

No, I know what the words mean. And none of the guys I listed were strictly fighters, rather they did it all. Think opposing players took note when Hatcher and Pronger stepped on the ice?

It's like last year's playoffs when Giroux came right out of the gate, laid out Crosby, then scored a quick goal. He led in multiple ways. He did whatever it takes. And even though he's taken a step back this year, he could be the kind of leader I'm talking about, but he isn't there yet.

Let's turn the question around: if you could have any of the following players as your captain - Lindros, Pronger, Primeau, Hatcher, Smith, Timonen - which would it be?

That's great, but we don't have any of those gentleman. And Sundin and Alfredsson I guess are pretty good captains, but they haven't won anything yet. And Sakic had Forsberg and Roy ... Leaders.

Put him on a line centering Voracek.
He will produce great 2nd line center numbers all season.

(I agree with you though, he was put in a big role this season and he is not there yet, but those games he had Jake earlier he looked tremendous).
- Marc D

I was at the Carolina game this year that Briere won in OT on 2/9.

The goal BSchenn and Voracek combined on in that game was probably one of the most skillful plays I saw all year (it was right in front of my section, practically). The tools are there with Schenn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPLwL6sjC1Y

Im a big Czechie fan... and said I thought he would take the next step and deserved to be on G's wing, but the 180 that Rinaldo has pulled.. the fact that turned himself into one of the most effective pests in the game while being able to play in multiple situations... draws penalties far more than he takes them and leads the NHL in hits per 60 mins has really made it an easy one for me.

He draws 3.2 penalties per 60 minutes... second only to Patrick Kaleta.
- jak521

Love how Rinaldo has learned to not cross the line this year, but his contributions pale in comparison to what Voracek has accomplished this season.

No, I know what the words mean. And none of the guys I listed were strictly fighters, rather they did it all. Think opposing players took note when Hatcher and Pronger stepped on the ice?

It's like last year's playoffs when Giroux came right out of the gate, laid out Crosby, then scored a quick goal. He led in multiple ways. He did whatever it takes. And even though he's taken a step back this year, he could be the kind of leader I'm talking about, but he isn't there yet.

Let's turn the question around: if you could have any of the following players as your captain - Lindros, Pronger, Primeau, Hatcher, Smith, Timonen - which would it be?

That's great, but we don't have any of those gentleman. And Sundin and Alfredsson I guess are pretty good captains, but they haven't won anything yet. And Sakic had Forsberg and Roy ... Leaders.
- wolfhounds

SO you ask me to choose from a list of guys we dont have, and then tell me that the guys I mentioned dont count because we dont have them?

If I had my choice, I'd take Pronger. Not because he would be the snot out of guys... hardly, but because of how great a player he is. He is a HOF 2-way d-man. Those players demand respect. Sorta like Lidstrom.

I was at the Carolina game this year that Briere won in OT on 2/9.

The goal BSchenn and Voracek combined on in that game was probably one of the most skillful plays I saw all year (it was right in front of my section, practically). The tools are there with Schenn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPLwL6sjC1Y
- johndewar

The point here being though, that offensive flare isnt everything. Point production isn't everything.

If it was the Flyers would have won a few cups in their recent history along with Washington.

I really miss watching Rinaldo since he has been out.
Best energy on the team this year.
- Marc D

Me too

Love how Rinaldo has learned to not cross the line this year, but his contributions pale in comparison to what Voracek has accomplished this season.
- bradleyc4

No doubt, but from an individual stand point.. nobody on the team comes close to the 180 that Rinaldo pulled. He played on the top line at points lol. Who coulda seen that coming? Hell, a ton of people didnt even want him on the team.

You want a guy who can:

a. "drop the gloves"
b. "Rock the big hit"
c. "Play angry and with some serious 'snarl'?"

That's what Jay Rosehill does. So, does that make him a viable leader candidate?
- jmatchett383

No. You're cherry-picking.

I want a leader. I want presence. I want someone who will do whatever it will take to get the win, who (frank)ing hates losing, who will call out his teammates and they will have no choice but to listen to him or pay the price. I want the player who can put the team on his back when needed. I want the leader who can make all those around him better, more confident just because he set skate to ice.

Giroux can be that guy - he did it in game 6 last year - but he isn't getting it done this season.

The point here being though, that offensive flare isnt everything. Point production isn't everything.

If it was the Flyers would have won a few cups in their recent history along with Washington.
- flyer_nutter

I don't disagree.

I hope Brayden Schenn uses this year as a learning experience.

No. You're cherry-picking.

I want a leader. I want presence. I want someone who will do whatever it will take to get the win, who (frank)ing hates losing, who will call out his teammates and they will have no choice but to listen to him or pay the price. I want the player who can put the team on his back when needed. I want the leader who can make all those around him better, more confident just because he set skate to ice.

Giroux can be that guy - he did it in game 6 last year - but he isn't getting it done this season.
- wolfhounds

Well, then there are few better than Timonen.

SO you ask me to choose from a list of guys we dont have, and then tell me that the guys I mentioned dont count because we dont have them?

If I had my choice, I'd take Pronger. Not because he would be the snot out of guys... hardly, but because of how great a player he is. He is a HOF 2-way d-man. Those players demand respect. Sorta like Lidstrom.
- jak521

Yeah, I guess that didn't make much sense. My point was more to the fact we've never had them. And since my original comment was how we're missing past leaders, that was still in my head.

Again, you're choosing to focus on the fighting. That was never my main focus. It's about being able to do whatever it takes, and it's about intangibles.

No, I know what the words mean. And none of the guys I listed were strictly fighters, rather they did it all. Think opposing players took note when Hatcher and Pronger stepped on the ice?

It's like last year's playoffs when Giroux came right out of the gate, laid out Crosby, then scored a quick goal. He led in multiple ways. He did whatever it takes. And even though he's taken a step back this year, he could be the kind of leader I'm talking about, but he isn't there yet.

Let's turn the question around: if you could have any of the following players as your captain - Lindros, Pronger, Primeau, Hatcher, Smith, Timonen - which would it be?

That's great, but we don't have any of those gentleman. And Sundin and Alfredsson I guess are pretty good captains, but they haven't won anything yet. And Sakic had Forsberg and Roy ... Leaders.
- wolfhounds

Sundin and Alfredsson haven't won anything? I guess if we discount Olympic and world championship Gold Medals that's correct.

Look, I get what you're saying. But you don't have to be a guy who can dominate physically to be a great leader. Jean Beliveau. Mario Lemieux. Niklas Lidstrom. Scott Neidermayer. I think they were all great captains, but none of them were players who laid people out on a nightly basis. Yes, it's nice to be able to tie in the skill withe the ability to be a physically imposing player who others fear when out on the ice, but that shouldn't be the definition of a leader. If a guy inspires his team to succeed by laying out to block shots, playing through unbearable injuries, and giving 100% on every shift, then he's a leader I'd want on my team.

Well, then there are few better than Timonen.
- jak521

Meh. I couldn't disagree more. But it's getting stale at this point.

Timonen is a very good defenseman, and that's where it ends for me.

I'm not sure I agree with your assessment that there's a trend of them bringing in guys who have subpar defensive track records.

Briere, okay. But he was a top-notch even-strength point producer.
Simmonds, okay. But he added some grit and a PP presence.

Who else?

I've seen them add guys who are good defensively -- Gagne, Couturier, Talbot, Fedotenko, Read, Hall, etc.
- bradleyc4

I'd be curious to know if some of Couturier's regression this year was due to Lavi pushing him to be more offensive though... No idea. But he seemed a lot more lost out there on the ice this year. He lacked focus and direction, kept second guessing himself. Almost like he was being told one thing but his gut was telling him to do something else. And a young player is going to try and please his coach...

Meh. I couldn't disagree more. But it's getting stale at this point.

Timonen is a very good defenseman, and that's where it ends for me.
- wolfhounds

And that my friend, is known as being shortsighted.

If you ignore all that Timonen does for this team, the impact he has on the players that play with him, the fact that despite numerous injuries that would keep 95% of the leagues players out for a game he would be suiting up, and the fact that there are few people that hate losing the way Timonen hates losing....

Sundin and Alfredsson haven't won anything? I guess if we discount Olympic and world championship Gold Medals that's correct.

Look, I get what you're saying. But you don't have to be a guy who can dominate physically to be a great leader. Jean Beliveau. Mario Lemieux. Niklas Lidstrom. Scott Neidermayer. I think they were all great captains, but none of them were players who laid people out on a nightly basis. Yes, it's nice to be able to tie in the skill withe the ability to be a physically imposing player who others fear when out on the ice, but that shouldn't be the definition of a leader. If a guy inspires his team to succeed by laying out to block shots, playing through unbearable injuries, and giving 100% on every shift, then he's a leader I'd want on my team.
- jmatchett383

I was thinking more of the cup...but you've made some very fair points.

I like Timonen, I'd love for him to get his name on the cup - I think he deserves that. He's a warrior, no debating it. And maybe no 1 person could fix this dysfunctional squad, but I'm just not seeing enough leadership out of this team, and therefore I conclude we're lacking.