Carle's actually a pretty solid defenseman. Turnovers can be an issue with him, but high turnover numbers plague a lot of defensemen that play the puck a lot.
Here's a partial list of defensemen that had more giveaways than Matt Carle this year:
Dion Phaneuf, Andrei Markov, Dustin Byfuglien, Travis Hamonic, Dan Boyle, Jeff Petry, PK Subban, Victor Hedman, John Carlson, Brent Seabrook, Slava Voynov, Mark Streit, Drew Doughty, Shea Weber, Francois Beauchemin and Ryan Whitney - Jsaquella
Please sort by defensive zone turnovers ...
Most of those players cited are actually carrying the puck across and making plays in all three zones. Carle rarely ventures outside his own zone before passing up the puck thus, versus the elite puck movers in your list, I'd bet that a significantly greater percentage of his turnovers are made from the defensive zone (where they are generally, more dangerous).
the end of the piece is really what all of the issues of the season were about - above bryz's play, and any manufactured drama from his talking with the media. but let's focus on the goaltending, and the numbers with no context because obviously he's the reason they're not in the playoffs. riiiiiiight?
Most of those players cited are actually carrying the puck across and making plays in all three zones. Carle rarely ventures outside his own zone before passing up the puck thus, versus the elite puck movers in your list, I'd bet that a significantly greater percentage of his turnovers are made from the defensive zone (where they are generally, more dangerous). - exlund
I'm not saying he's an elite puck mover, but he's also far from being a bad player.
Need some opinions. I've heard alot of names tossed around for who the Flyers should pick in the 1st round. Who realistically will be there that we should definitely get, and are any players that we want still probably going to be available by the 49th pick or whatever our 2nd rounder is? Would it be smarter to trade up with a 2nd or 3rd to get a late 1st rounder and get another defender we've been eyeing?
Need some opinions. I've heard alot of names tossed around for who the Flyers should pick in the 1st round. Who realistically will be there that we should definitely get, and are any players that we want still probably going to be available by the 49th pick or whatever our 2nd rounder is? Would it be smarter to trade up with a 2nd or 3rd to get a late 1st rounder and get another defender we've been eyeing? - JAKEw1234
It depends.
If the draft plays out like most mocks I have seen, they'll have a great chance of landing a good defensemen if they stay put. If there's a run on defensemen, they could end up getting forward like Elias Lindholm or Hunter Shinkaruk who were fairly safe bets as top ten guys a few weeks ago.
There's a fair number of GM's who could be wildcards ahead of them, too.
It comes down to three of your top 4 D-men and most of your 5-8 D men not being puckmovers. Guys are going to have to play outside their comfort zone. It's a really horrible makeup for a D group.
Re-signing Grossmann was fine, but they should have moved Coburn and kept Carle to maintain some sort of balance. - hereticpride
I don't think there was some big deficiency in "puck moving", specifically due to the loss of Matt Carle, to the point where Lavy's system became ineffective. Carle rarely skated the puck out of the zone to carry the mail, instead favoring short passes from deep in his own zone. Yes, there were the occasional, flashy stretch passes (which didn't come without risk) but it's not like the transition game depended Carle's once a game stretch pass to operate effectively. Most of the current guys have shown they can make a decent first pass and even carry the puck out of the zone effectively...and I don't think it is "too much for them to handle" as some have said. I would argue that Timo, Schenn, Grossman, Gusty and at times, Mez, displayed ability that was, in ways, equal to or superior to Carle's in terms of carrying, skating the puck and/or battling to get it out of the zone.
I think the issue has a lot more to do with what what I have been saying, for years really, and that others have also noted, that the forwards are not (consistently) supporting enough on the backcheck and the breakout so the team can defend, transition and attack more as a five man unit like the best teams tend to do. I just don't think the personnel argument, vis-a-vis Matt Carle's absence, is valid, evidenced by the team's improved play down the stretch, with a bunch of AHL callups and "scrubs" (no offense) on D. They didn't need Matt Carle (or Grossmann, or Coburn or Mez, or Timonen) on the team for the forwards to come back and help out more. Now, imagine if they keep that up with healthy, starting top 6 defensemen in there.
Now, if you want to tell me the team still misses a player like Pronger's ability to carry the puck and transition the puck into the offensive zone, QB the pp and create offense with the big shot from the point, I'm in agreement...but Carle wasn't that guy (despite what Stevie Y may have thought last off season). Further, I think his puck-moving is overrated by many. Carle rarely carried the puck out of the zone himself, let alone carry it over the red line, where he could shoot it in...and I can count on one hand how many times I've seen him actually carry the puck from the defensive zone over the red line, like a top puck mover should be able to do with regularity. To me, Carle was not a true puck moving d, he was a guy who could make a good first pass...I believe the Flyers have that without Carle.
Would I have liked to have had Carle around this season given how things unfolded? Sure. He's durable and can give you minutes. He's a good, versatile supporting player. I've always said he can do lot of things out there, but doesn't really excel at any of them. Are you really saying that what Matt Carle provided was the key missing ingredient in Lavy's system? Well, unless making short passes from deep in his own zone and some other simple plays with a stretcher thrown in once a game was that missing element, I would say not.
The improved play of the team down the stretch, even as better D men fell out of the lineup, was an indication that the team's woes were more tied to the team's approach than to missing personnel. With that said, an offensively skilled, puck carrying d man or two would complement the existing corps nicely.
Location: "All train compartments smell vaguely of sh*t. It gets so you don't mind it" Joined: 12.26.2006
Apr 29 @ 10:29 PM ET
the end of the piece is really what all of the issues of the season were about - above bryz's play, and any manufactured drama from his talking with the media. but let's focus on the goaltending, and the numbers with no context because obviously he's the reason they're not in the playoffs. riiiiiiight? - hammarby31
not even the issue at this point. it's about what they need going forward and evaluating who stays/goes based on performance, cap space, etc. no way 7 more yrs of bryz makes sense at that #, given what we've seen.
IMO, Schenn is very soft on the puck. Everybody sees him run around making body checks & think he's a strong player but I see it differently along the walls and when he has the puck on his stick.
I'd really like to see an improment there next year. - flyguy12
He's 21. One of the things inherent in such a young player is physical inferiority to the veterans in the league. That can manifest itself in being pushed around by bigger, stronger players. Schenn has proven can be dominant against competition closer to his age bracket, but not yet in the NHL against "men". The margin of difference should close over the next few years as he reaches peak physical maturity and development. That's when we'll know what we really have in B. Schenn imo.
Location: it's been 84 years, AZ Joined: 01.02.2007
Apr 29 @ 10:45 PM ET
not even the issue at this point. it's about what they need going forward and evaluating who stays/goes based on performance, cap space, etc. no way 7 more yrs of bryz makes sense at that #, given what we've seen. - isaiah520
and if we had a more complete sample based on a real chance to see him succeed, i agree. he needs to be better, regardless of his contract, if he wants to remain a #1 goalie in this league. i feel confident that given a reasonably healthy team, in a full 82 game season, with a competent back up, and team committed to defense, without most of its core players taking steps backwards at the same time, he will rise to the occasion and play the way the needs him to play. iow, he's not going to stand on his head for 65-70 games without proper support in front of him.
he's a very good goalie who's demonstrated the ability to help put a low-scoring team on this back and get them to the playoffs. imo, he's earned the right to have another season to continue to stay here. if he under-performs next year, regardless of circumstances, he'll be out.
Location: "All train compartments smell vaguely of sh*t. It gets so you don't mind it" Joined: 12.26.2006
Apr 29 @ 11:02 PM ET
and if we had a more complete sample based on a real chance to see him succeed, i agree. he needs to be better, regardless of his contract, if he wants to remain a #1 goalie in this league. i feel confident that given a reasonably healthy team, in a full 82 game season, with a competent back up, and team committed to defense, without most of its core players taking steps backwards at the same time, he will rise to the occasion and play the way the needs him to play. iow, he's not going to stand on his head for 65-70 games without proper support in front of him.
he's a very good goalie who's demonstrated the ability to help put a low-scoring team on this back and get them to the playoffs. imo, he's earned the right to have another season to continue to stay here. if he under-performs next year, regardless of circumstances, he'll be out. - hammarby31
given that a buyout is likely- i think inevitable - a careful look at alternatives would be the main determinant as to whether i would make the move now or after nxt season.
if re-examine some of the qualifying remarks/conditions that you had to throw into your post to make the prospects of him returning sound palatable...i don't think his performance is any better than biron's was to be frank. he's more talented, but the results, given the rest of the whole picture just don't cut it for me.
if backstrom, emory, lu et al, are FAs, i'd pair one w/ mason and move on if the contract was favorable for us.
and if we had a more complete sample based on a real chance to see him succeed, i agree. he needs to be better, regardless of his contract, if he wants to remain a #1 goalie in this league. i feel confident that given a reasonably healthy team, in a full 82 game season, with a competent back up, and team committed to defense, without most of its core players taking steps backwards at the same time, he will rise to the occasion and play the way the needs him to play. iow, he's not going to stand on his head for 65-70 games without proper support in front of him.
he's a very good goalie who's demonstrated the ability to help put a low-scoring team on this back and get them to the playoffs. imo, he's earned the right to have another season to continue to stay here. if he under-performs next year, regardless of circumstances, he'll be out. - hammarby31
Location: it's been 84 years, AZ Joined: 01.02.2007
Apr 29 @ 11:10 PM ET
given that a buyout is likely- i think inevitable - a careful look at alternatives would be the main determinant as to whether i would make the move now or after nxt season.
if re-examine some of the qualifying remarks/conditions that you had to throw into your post to make the prospects of him returning sound palatable...i don't think his performance is any better than biron's was to be frank. he's more talented, but the results, given the rest of the whole picture just don't cut it for me.
if backstrom, emory, lu et al, are FAs, i'd pair one w/ mason and move on if the contract was favorable for us. - isaiah520
everyone wants to spend less and get more performance. i'm with you. but i don't apologize for liking bryz and being a fan. i don't think he's in the top tier of goalies in this league, but, again, if given the proper support, he's more than capable of doing what the team needs. i'm fine with giving him another year. again, i think he's earned it. i don't see his cap hit as outrageous or insane. hell, timmo and briere's cap hits are higher!!!! after next year, the cap will continue to go up and the hit would take up less and less of the space. i just don't have a huge problem with his contract.
if they buy him out now, i'm ok with that, too, provided they replace him with another proven player, not another project and put their eggs in the mason basket. that said, i want to see him get another year at least.
Location: "All train compartments smell vaguely of sh*t. It gets so you don't mind it" Joined: 12.26.2006
Apr 29 @ 11:12 PM ET
everyone wants to spend less and get more performance. i'm with you. but i don't apologize for liking bryz and being a fan. i don't think he's in the top tier of goalies in this league, but, again, if given the proper support, he's more than capable of doing what the team needs. i'm fine with giving him another year. again, i think he's earned it. i don't see his cap hit as outrageous or insane. hell, timmo and briere's cap hits are higher!!!! after next year, the cap will continue to go up and hit hit would take up less and less of the space. i just don't have a huge problem with his contract.
if they buy him out now, i'm ok with that, too, provided they replace him with another proven player, not another project and put their eggs in the mason basket. that said, i want to see him get another year at least. - hammarby31
your points are reasonable, but i'm mostly not in agreement.
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