that is definitely a valid criticism. if the flyers dismantle this group before they see what they can do, then they are doing themselves a disservice. i do think they could and should move a piece or two, but they now have the organizational depth to do such. and that is a direct result of those two great trades. however, there is a definite difference between dealing from a position of strength to improve the team, than becoming impatient and scrapping all forms of development.
- stayinthefnnet

I was always kind of torn on the Carter/Richards trades. Both players had their positives and negatives, but they were pretty solid. Not as solid imo, as the Flyers thought they were when they handed out those huge deals. They are complementary players, and not the two headed monster the Flyers wanted them to be.

The thing with Brayden Schenn and Coots is that all they really have right now is that wonderful "potential". We will see.

Its a pretty young forward core with potential, but an aging inconsistent defense. Team needs more balance. Will be an interesting summer for sure.

The flyers have been built in fits and starts w/ no real plan or underlying philosophy. The carter/Richards moves were trades that the flyers won, but the discordant nature of the reboot, bringing in bryz and not restocking w/ significant D has the team spinning their wheels a little right now. Exercising some patience w/ the young players can make all the diff going forward.
- isaiah520

There was a definite plan and philosophy. Try to win now at the cost of some of the future. Can't fault them for that. Can't win without a Goalie. Regardless of how young your team is. I will never fault a team for identifying a weakness, and going out and getting who they felt is the best player.

The flyers have been built in fits and starts w/ no real plan or underlying philosophy. The carter/Richards moves were trades that the flyers won, but the discordant nature of the reboot, bringing in bryz and not restocking w/ significant D has the team spinning their wheels a little right now. Exercising some patience w/ the young players can make all the diff going forward.
- isaiah520

The one thing I'd really have liked them to learn from the last few years is to hold off on those huge ass deals, when a player might have a good year or a hot streak.

I do think signing guys to long term deals, only to trade them and now possibly buy them out (Bryz), kind of makes them a bit of a laughing stock. Things could be worse I guess though.

I was always kind of torn on the Carter/Richards trades. Both players had their positives and negatives, but they were pretty solid. Not as solid imo, as the Flyers thought they were when they handed out those huge deals. They are complementary players, and not the two headed monster the Flyers wanted them to be.

The thing with Brayden Schenn and Coots is that all they really have right now is that wonderful "potential". We will see.

Its a pretty young forward core with potential, but an aging inconsistent defense. Team needs more balance. Will be an interesting summer for sure.
- flyer_nutter

I wouldn't call them complimentary players. 3rd line Wingers and 3rd pair defenseman are complimentary players. Richards and Carter are top line and high minute players. That play top minutes in all situations, on one of the top teams in the League.

I was always kind of torn on the Carter/Richards trades. Both players had their positives and negatives, but they were pretty solid. Not as solid imo, as the Flyers thought they were when they handed out those huge deals. They are complementary players, and not the two headed monster the Flyers wanted them to be.

The thing with Brayden Schenn and Coots is that all they really have right now is that wonderful "potential". We will see.

Its a pretty young forward core with potential, but an aging inconsistent defense. Team needs more balance. Will be an interesting summer for sure.
- flyer_nutter

Couturier's "potential" isn't unwarranted though. The 19 year old shut down Malkin in a playoff series to 1 goal. 1 goal. Geno Malkin, his nickname is geno for petes sake. You wanna know what 19 year old me was doing? Smoking doobies and smacking boobies.

EDIT: guess what 20 year old me is doing...

The one thing I'd really have liked them to learn from the last few years is to hold off on those huge ass deals, when a player might have a good year or a hot streak.

I do think signing guys to long term deals, only to trade them and now possibly buy them out (Bryz), kind of makes them a bit of a laughing stock. Things could be worse I guess though.
- flyer_nutter

Flyers have traded two players who they signed to long term deals, only to trade them soon after. And they made good deals. That hardly makes them a laughing stock. And good number of teams have had to buyout players. Bury high priced players in the minors. And we'll see how many players are bought out with a CBO. That hardly makes the Flyers unique.

Couturier's "potential" isn't unwarranted though. The 19 year old shut down Malkin in a playoff series to 1 goal. 1 goal. Geno Malkin, his nickname is geno for petes sake. You wanna know what 19 year old me was doing? Smoking doobies and smacking boobies.

EDIT: guess what 20 year old me is doing...
- GirouxForTheShow

Posting on hockeybuzz in a year of reflection?

The way I see it Coots had an impressive first year, and a sub par year last season. I like what I see in the kid, but I'm not ready to label him too highly.

Flyers have traded two players who they signed to long term deals, only to trade them soon after. And they made good deals. That hardly makes them a laughing stock. And good number of teams have had to buyout players. Bury high priced players in the minors. And we'll see how many players are bought out with a CBO. That hardly makes the Flyers unique.
- MJL

Frankly, I asked you yesterday to ignore my posts as I do yours.

You have time and time again ruined my experience on this website.

Really that much of an bumhole hey? Grow up son.

Posting on hockeybuzz in a year of reflection?

The way I see it Coots had an impressive first year, and a sub par year last season. I like what I see in the kid, but I'm not ready to label him too highly.
- flyer_nutter

Actually, Coots almost matched is pts/game rate from his rookie year. His defense game really matured, is the big thing though. I'd go as far as to say that he's one of the best defensive forwards in the league now, at age 20.

You do realize that you're totally guessing and pulling you know what out of hat? But you're attempting to state it as a fact. I don't care who is here, as long as they win.

LA doesn't win the Cup if they didn't chase Richards and Carter.
- MJL

The rates of turnover are based on historical record. The only pre-2010 Flyers 1st-rounder still with the team is Giroux. Many of the young guys they accumulated as part of their initial reloading are gone, too.

There's a reason why this team seems like a Stanley Cup feeder system... they develop all these great young players, battle-harden them, and right when they're at the cusp of learning how to win, poof, they're sent to teams that get to enjoy the fruits of the Flyers' labor. Carter and Richards are the most obvious examples, but Williams and Gagne are in the same category, as was Brind'Amour and Recchi and a host of others.

It's really no accident that teams with high rates of player turnover and constant shifts in philosophy like the Rangers, Flyers and Leafs have such a hard time taking that next step... while teams that have continuity of personnel and experience have had so much success.

Posting on hockeybuzz in a year of reflection?

The way I see it Coots had an impressive first year, and a sub par year last season. I like what I see in the kid, but I'm not ready to label him too highly.
- flyer_nutter

I really hope that if both B. Schenn and Coots are on the roster in the fall, Lava finds a way to get them both playing in the top 6. It would probably precipitate B. Schenn moving to wing, which I think he can do and also considering Briere being bought out. In my scenario either Read, Simmonds, or Hartnell is traded for blue line help or moved down to a third line. My gut tells me one of them is being moved for blueline help.

Also, in my hypothetical scenario my bottom 6 would consist of any combination of the following: Laughton, Talbot, Gagne, Rinaldo, Rosehill and the final guy TBD.

I really hope that if both B. Schenn and Coots are on the roster in the fall, Lava finds a way to get them both playing in the top 6. It would probably precipitate B. Schenn moving to wing, which I think he can do and also considering Briere being bought out. In my scenario either Read, Simmonds, or Hartnell is traded for blue line help or moved down to a third line. My gut tells me one of them is being moved for blueline help.

Also, in my hypothetical scenario my bottom 6 would consist of any combination of the following: Laughton, Talbot, Gagne, Rinaldo, Rosehill and the final guy TBD.
- ravishingone

Hall, solid faceoff man

The rates of turnover are based on historical record. The only pre-2010 Flyers 1st-rounder still with the team is Giroux. Many of the young guys they accumulated as part of their initial reloading are gone, too.

There's a reason why this team seems like a Stanley Cup feeder system... they develop all these great young players, battle-harden them, and right when they're at the cusp of learning how to win, poof, they're sent to teams that get to enjoy the fruits of the Flyers' labor. Carter and Richards are the most obvious examples, but Williams and Gagne are in the same category, as was Brind'Amour and Recchi and a host of others.

It's really no accident that teams with high rates of player turnover and constant shifts in philosophy like the Rangers, Flyers and Leafs have such a hard time taking that next step... while teams that have continuity of personnel and experience have had so much success.
- Tomahawk

The Flyers traded a number of first round picks to acquire some players, to try and win. That's a crapshoot. But a lot of teams do it. I don't have a problem doing it.
But your not looking deep enough. Look at every team that wins. They've all traded young players, for other players. Signed key free agents. What team wins without doing that?
You have to look at each trade individually. We're going in circles here. Would you have liked the Flyers to not have made the Carter trade? You can't only look at it one way. The Flyers went to a Cup final with Carter and Richards. The Justin Williams trade was a long time ago. He was on the cusp of learning how to win? What was he, 19 at the time?

Actually, Coots almost matched is pts/game rate from his rookie year. His defense game really matured, is the big thing though. I'd go as far as to say that he's one of the best defensive forwards in the league now, at age 20.
- JAKEw1234

Would you bet your testicles?

The one thing I'd really have liked them to learn from the last few years is to hold off on those huge ass deals, when a player might have a good year or a hot streak.

I do think signing guys to long term deals, only to trade them and now possibly buy them out (Bryz), kind of makes them a bit of a laughing stock. Things could be worse I guess though.
- flyer_nutter

homer could go either way here, I dunno. The team is in a tough spot in some ways. There are real questions even @ forward. I keep coming back to patience and hanging on to asset s, because they've squandered too many in the past.

There was a definite plan and philosophy. Try to win now at the cost of some of the future. Can't fault them for that. Can't win without a Goalie. Regardless of how young your team is. I will never fault a team for identifying a weakness, and going out and getting who they felt is the best player.
- MJL

"I don't know if we're better, but we're different" is not a plan. They just collect talent, get to a certain point and then try to rush the process and here we go again... Lather, rinse, repeat...

The rates of turnover are based on historical record. The only pre-2010 Flyers 1st-rounder still with the team is Giroux. Many of the young guys they accumulated as part of their initial reloading are gone, too.

There's a reason why this team seems like a Stanley Cup feeder system... they develop all these great young players, battle-harden them, and right when they're at the cusp of learning how to win, poof, they're sent to teams that get to enjoy the fruits of the Flyers' labor. Carter and Richards are the most obvious examples, but Williams and Gagne are in the same category, as was Brind'Amour and Recchi and a host of others.

It's really no accident that teams with high rates of player turnover and constant shifts in philosophy like the Rangers, Flyers and Leafs have such a hard time taking that next step... while teams that have continuity of personnel and experience have had so much success.
- Tomahawk

I'm kind of half and half on this. I do like that they have the balls to make moves, but I would really agree that as an organization they lack patience and a real philosophy/direction. Its become really clear since the 2nd last lockout.

I think the biggest thing they have to try and build is a team that has a window for a few years, and is a truly elite team for a while. Not one that runs so hot and cold, and has to win game 82 to even make the playoffs. How to do that, I dont know, but patience, and proper/realistic player evaluation is a good first step.

The rates of turnover are based on historical record. The only pre-2010 Flyers 1st-rounder still with the team is Giroux. Many of the young guys they accumulated as part of their initial reloading are gone, too.

There's a reason why this team seems like a Stanley Cup feeder system... they develop all these great young players, battle-harden them, and right when they're at the cusp of learning how to win, poof, they're sent to teams that get to enjoy the fruits of the Flyers' labor. Carter and Richards are the most obvious examples, but Williams and Gagne are in the same category, as was Brind'Amour and Recchi and a host of others.

It's really no accident that teams with high rates of player turnover and constant shifts in philosophy like the Rangers, Flyers and Leafs have such a hard time taking that next step... while teams that have continuity of personnel and experience have had so much success.
- Tomahawk

Certainly an interesting discussion, that I wanted to chime in on without ruffling feathers. As a fan (one who sat in the stands in '97 when those dirty Red Wings swept out the Flyers) certainly winning the cup in the end is the only thing that matters. I'll take the last six years as a sample size (I believe Kimmo's time here), the Flyers have been to the ECF finals and Stanley Cup finals, been past the first round of the playoffs each year until missing the playoffs this year. I'm not sure it is fair to group them with the Leafs who just made the playoffs for the first time in like 5 years (not really sure).

I actually think the team's philosophy for building the team has been pretty consistent over the last 20 years plus. Draft forwards early in the draft (to their credit usually have been correct), use some of those young assets also with high draft picks to acquire proven d-men to put together the blueline at the NHL level. Has it won a Cup, which is the ultimate goal? Of course not, I just don't believe their philosophy has changed that much. Also, up until Bryz, don't overspend on a goalie, which in hindsight they bidded against themselves when trying to sign Bryz, which was a mistake.

From a sheer percentage standpoint, it is really hard for a hockey team to lose 5 straight Cup finals. Ah yes, the cross we bear as Flyers fans.

"I don't know if we're better, but we're different" is not a plan. They just collect talent, get to a certain point and then try to rush the process and here we go again... Lather, rinse, repeat...
- isaiah520

Edit: Kind of feels like debating a point w/ MJL, too

"I don't know if we're better, but we're different" is not a plan. They just collect talent, get to a certain point and then try to rush the process and here we go again... Lather, rinse, repeat...
- isaiah520

Who said it was a plan? No, it's not lather, rinse, repeat. I think it's clear that the Flyers have identified a core, and who they want to build behind. Every team just collects talent. That's the objective.

Would you bet your testicles?
- flyer_nutter

No but I would bet yours

I'm kind of half and half on this. I do like that they have the balls to make moves, but I would really agree that as an organization they lack patience and a real philosophy/direction. Its become really clear since the 2nd last lockout.

I think the biggest thing they have to try and build is a team that has a window for a few years, and is a truly elite team for a while. Not one that runs so hot and cold, and has to win game 82 to even make the playoffs. How to do that, I dont know, but patience, and proper/realistic player evaluation is a good first step.
- flyer_nutter

Every team runs hot and cold. Chicago won the Presidents Cup this year. Season before they were a 6th seed. The Pens are a Cup favorite right now. Last Season they got knocked out in the first round. It's a fine line in this League.

"I don't know if we're better, but we're different" is not a plan. They just collect talent, get to a certain point and then try to rush the process and here we go again... Lather, rinse, repeat...
- isaiah520

Whatever the hell they have, I do think that Giroux, Luke Schenn, Simmonds, Voracek, Read and Coots are a good building block.

Draft right for a few years and build things right. Dont tank, but draft some solid kids and some smart FA signings.

This team could have a really bright future, but it will take the right moves.

Edit: Kind of feels like debating a point w/ MJL, too
- Tomahawk

We're definitely going around in circles with your repeated mentioning of Carter as an example of how the Flyers have failed. Apparently ignoring how great of a move it was.

Whatever the hell they have, I do think that Giroux, Luke Schenn, Simmonds, Voracek, Read and Coots are a good building block.

Draft right for a few years and build things right. Dont tank, but draft some solid kids and some smart FA signings.

This team could have a really bright future, but it will take the right moves.
- flyer_nutter

Yep, exactly what LA did. And Boston the year before.