Are there any stats that aren't shown on the NHL website that are important to consider? I know takeaways, giveaways, and fights are 3 stats I'd like to see them put up.
- JAKEw1234

Corsi, Fenwick, Corsi QOC...there's a whole slew of them.

Are there any stats that aren't shown on the NHL website that are important to consider? I know takeaways, giveaways, and fights are 3 stats I'd like to see them put up.
- JAKEw1234

Hits, takeaways, giveaways are all collected differently depending on what arena you're in and who the official scorer is... it's so subjective... they're pretty unreliable numbers.

One thing that I would love to see the NHL do is normalize PP%s and PK%s. Why does a 5-min kill count the exact same as a 1-sec kill? What about multiple goals on a major? I wish they would normalize it as GF-per-2:00PP and GA-per-2:00PK.

Hits, takeaways, giveaways are all collected differently depending on what arena you're in and who the official scorer is... they're pretty unreliable.

One thing that I would love to see the NHL do is normalize PP%s and PK%s. Why does a 5-min kill count the exact same as a 1-sec kill? What about multiple goals on a major? I wish they would normalize it as GF-per-2:00PP and GA-per-2:00PK.
- Tomahawk

Yeah, excellent point. Killing off a two minute 5 on 3 is worth the same as killing off 10 seconds at the end of a game.

Hits, takeaways, giveaways are all collected differently depending on what arena you're in and who the official scorer is... they're pretty unreliable.

One thing that I would love to see the NHL do is normalize PP%s and PK%s. Why does a 5-min kill count the exact same as a 1-sec kill? What about multiple goals on a major? I wish they would normalize it as GF-per-2:00PP and GA-per-2:00PK.
- Tomahawk

I think multiple goals on a major breaks up the PP, making it virtually impossible to have a perfect PP% on a 5-minute PP. So if you score 1 goal 3 minutes in and none in the ensuing 2 minutes, you're 1/2. The only way to go 100% would be to score, and then get a penalty during the goal stoppage that negates the rest of the major.

Here's what's confusing you: defensive acumen is not reflected in the QualComp calculation... QualComp only looks at aggregated offensive potency of the opposition while a certain player is on the ice.

QualComp alone would seem to show that Couturier's an easy mark. However, once you figure in the other various metrics, you begin to get a better picture of the type of player he is and how Lavi chose to use him.


- Tomahawk

No I'm not confused at all. I'm pointing out the flaw in Qualcomp. The fact that defensive acumen is not reflected, points out that it can't possibly accurately reflect the quality of competition that players face in the NHL.

Unless you are able to watch every game, track every player on the ice at the same time (especially the off-camera, behind the play stuff), for every team in the NHL, you're going to need stats.

How do you know that Stamkos has been the most prolific goal-scorer since 2008? The stats told you that. You didn't need to watch him score every single goal in person, you didn't even need to see him score a single goal at all, all you have to do is look it up.


- Tomahawk

You do need stats. But they're over relied on. Especially the advanced stats. In terms of goals scored, there is no gray area there. A goal is a goal. In advanced stats, there is infinite gray area that it not accounted for.

There's really no difference between traditional and advanced stats. All advanced stats are built on observable events (shots, blocked shots, missed shots, goals) and culled from the official NHL.com game reports.

It's not really that mysterious and threatening... it's just new.
- Tomahawk

There is a huge difference between advanced stats and traditional stats. The only gray are in traditional stats is the human element. Such as in stats such as hits and giveaways. As there are differences between buildings of what is recorded as a hit, and what is not. As I already pointed out, the flaws such as in Qualcomp, there is infinitely more gray area involved. Fun to look at and use. But not the "bible" that a lot of fans make it out to be.

Hits, takeaways, giveaways are all collected differently depending on what arena you're in and who the official scorer is... they're pretty unreliable.

One thing that I would love to see the NHL do is normalize PP%s and PK%s. Why does a 5-min kill count the exact same as a 1-sec kill? What about multiple goals on a major? I wish they would normalize it as GF-per-2:00PP and GA-per-2:00PK.
- Tomahawk

This absolutely needs to happen.

With advanced metrics, I barely look at plus/minus anymore when looking at players. TOI/shot differential, or even-strength Save PCT for goalies, are things that are more useful, IMO.

Yeah, excellent point. Killing off a two minute 5 on 3 is worth the same as killing off 10 seconds at the end of a game.
- Jsaquella

Yeah, then the story is how the Flyers went 0-6 on the PP without anybody knowing that half of them were instantly negated by Hartnell and Briere getting tagged for o-zone penalties.

it is pretty hideous, but i like it for some reason.
- hammarby31

I agree on both.

I LOVE that logo, and will continue to do so no matter how much y'all rip on it.
- Doc_Sarcasm

Is that the 78-91 version or the 92-97 version? They're different.*

* I can't spot the difference.

There will always be a need for better statistics, not necessarily more statistics. The teams that can differentiate between what is relevant and what isnt will have an advantage.
- Doc_Sarcasm

100% agreed. Most times the problem isn't the statistic. It's the misuse of it. Standard +/- being one of the biggest culprits.

I'm a huge fan of Michael Lewis. Liar's Poker is probably my favorite non-fiction book of all time. Moneyball is good, but I think it is frequently misunderstood, and its lessons are misapplied.
- Doc_Sarcasm

Moneyball is very misunderstood.

And couldn't agree more about "Liar's Poker". IMO, it's a better book than "Moneyball".

Yeah, then the story is how the Flyers went 0-6 on the PP without anybody knowing that half of them were instantly negated by Hartnell and Briere getting tagged for o-zone penalties.
- Tomahawk

Is that the 78-91 version or the 92-97 version? They're different.*

* I can't spot the difference.
- Scoob

92-97 version. There are bats out there with better vision than me.. so... dont expect me to tell you the difference.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/blogpost.htm?id=18202&navid=nhl%3Atopheads

wouldn't it be great if the flyers drafted him and we went on to torture the devils for 20 years?

he's got some growing to do at only 5'10 if he wants a legit chance to make it. at 18, not so sure now much taller he'll get if at all.
- hammarby31

7th round to New Jersey like Nick Luuko.

No I'm not confused at all. I'm pointing out the flaw in Qualcomp. The fact that defensive acumen is not reflected, points out that it can't possibly accurately reflect the quality of competition that players face in the NHL.
- MJL

It's not meant to accurately reflect the quality of opponents... it only measures their offensive efficiency. You're getting hung up on the name of the stat and taking the 'quality' aspect of it too literally.

You do need stats. But they're over relied on. Especially the advanced stats. In terms of goals scored, there is no gray area there. A goal is a goal. In advanced stats, there is infinite gray area that it not accounted for.

There is a huge difference between advanced stats and traditional stats. The only gray are in traditional stats is the human element. Such as in stats such as hits and giveaways. As there are differences between buildings of what is recorded as a hit, and what is not. As I already pointed out, the flaws such as in Qualcomp, there is infinitely more gray area involved. Fun to look at and use. But not the "bible" that a lot of fans make it out to be.
- MJL

Is a goal the same every arena in the league?
Is a shot the same in every arena in the league?
Is a missed shot the same in every arena in the league?
Is a block shot the same in every arena in the league?

If so, the underpinnings of advanced stats are solid.

7th round to New Jersey like Nick Luuko.
- mayorofangrytown

Waste a 7th rounder on a favor, or possibly get the next Zetterberg.

Red Wings aren't drafting Jim Nill, Jr., I can tell you that.

Is a goal a goal in every arena in the league?
Is a shot a shot in every arena in the league?
Is a missed shot a missed shot in every arena in the league?
Is a block shot a blocked shot in every arena in the league?

- Tomahawk

Yes.
Yes.
Not exactly, as human error is possible.
Not exactly, as human error is possible.

Missed/blocked shots can be miscalculated due to deflection not accounted for and other factors that can be missed due to human eyesight limits.

Waste a 7th rounder on a favor, or possibly get the next Zetterberg.

Red Wings aren't drafting Jim Nill, Jr., I can tell you that.
- bradleyc4

That's his best chance to get drafted.

Is a goal the same every arena in the league?
Is a shot the same in every arena in the league?
Is a missed shot the same in every arena in the league?
Is a block shot the same in every arena in the league?

If so, the underpinnings of advanced stats are solid.
- Tomahawk

Yes
Probably, but not a lock
No
No

What's the tOpics today

Missed/blocked shots can be miscalculated due to deflection not accounted for and other factors that can be missed due to human eyesight limits.
- jmatchett383

A lot of these are corrected on replay... especially on scoring chances and goals.

But you're right, the league's raw data isn't completely airtight... more fool-proof stat collection will definitely lead to more accurate stats.

I just wanted to dispel the notion that there was some black magic involved.

A lot of these are corrected on replay... especially on scoring chances and goals.

But you're right, the league's raw data isn't completely airtight... more fool-proof stat collection will definitely lead to more accurate stats.

I just wanted to dispel the notion that there was some black magic involved.
- Tomahawk

Don't be racist Tommy...

Is there a stat that can definitively show how strong a defenseman (or player in general) is defensively? I know +/- is supposed to sort of show it, and I know TOI can give hints, but I don't know if there is a more definitive one. Would there be any way to really judge that statistically? Maybe a stat for players like even strength goals against that they were on the ice for? So just the - part of +/-?

What's the tOpics today
- SMS4016

Hockey Jerseys, Craig Buttons first round draft list and ...

Hockey metrics.

A lot of these are corrected on replay... especially on scoring chances and goals.

But you're right, the league's raw data isn't completely airtight... more fool-proof stat collection will definitely lead to more accurate stats.

I just wanted to dispel the notion that there was some black magic involved.
- Tomahawk

Didn't the jist of this whole debate start because you used these stats to reenforce your opinion that Edler is not as good as people think he is because of who he plays against?

I think that is what some are trying to debate you on.

I could have misunderstood your original point.