I find it funny sometimes the dynamic that occurs when talking about the value of players on big market teams vs. those on smaller market or western teams. While Couturier is a great talent and could probably be traded for either a stable or potential top-pairing defenseman, expecting a franchise, Norris-candidate defenseman in return can only be seen as the sort of systemic over-valuing that occurs around big market teams w/ die hard fan bases. They're able to generate a type of media buzz and a sort of self-subsuming, seemingly coherent echo chamber around their players that tend to leave them chronically over-valued in comparison to what the rest of the league (and other GMs therefore) would be willing to pay. Sometimes this is beneficial, as you get more value for the players you trade--Boston does this better than anyone. At other times, and especially if your team is on a downswing, if you're unwilling to trade an asset at his peak value, you might wind up like the Leafs did for years...

A good example of this dynamic can be seen in a comparison of Ryan O'Reilly and Couturier's perceived values (since they're similar players and I can speak about both, being an Avs fan living in Philly--their relative value in trade discussions here has also been brought up in the past). Both are close in age, style, and point output. Weighing both objectively for their on-ice play, I would predict similar development and overall potential, and yet, because O'Reilly played out west and received far less east coast media coverage and die-hard fan base hype, he was generally perceived to have far less value than Couturier when the Avs were attempting to trade him. I remember Flyers fans scoffing at the idea of a straight up O'Reilly for Couturier trade, even though the move likely would've been in the vein of a lateral, "fast-forwarding past the growing pains" type of trade for Philly, as O'Reilly had already shown his offensive potential. Further, imagine for a second how obscene it would have been to you all if the asking price for O'Reilly last June had been a Norris-caliber defenseman, even after coming off a 55 pt season. That's the sort of skew you're currently dealing with--you have a great young defensive center who's yet to show his O potential, but what you're asking is going to be viewed as ridiculous to everyone who doesn't have an orange sweater hanging up in their closet.
- Dissent

Well said. OReilly's contract issues diminish his worth significantly in my eyes and is currently vastly overpaid- thank you CGY. I also think you missed the point here. No one is saying that we can get a Norris Trophy D man. THEY ARE SAYING IT WOULD TAKE THAT FOR US TO ACTUALLY WANT TO TRADE HIM. Yes, we openly know we overvalue the guy due to potential. The point is, no one wants to trade him unless it is a vast over payment.

I'd prefer moving Hartnell if possible. I don't get why people are so eager to trade Read.
- Jsaquella

Agreed. Hartnell has a big cap hit & Simmonds can fill his role. Also, McGinn proved somewhat useful but not really in the same league as Hartnell or Simmonds. Read is probably the most versatile forward on the roster and his cap hit will likely remain reasonable after next season.

I find it funny sometimes the dynamic that occurs when talking about the value of players on big market teams vs. those on smaller market or western teams. While Couturier is a great talent and could probably be traded for either a stable or potential top-pairing defenseman, expecting a franchise, Norris-candidate defenseman in return can only be seen as the sort of systemic over-valuing that occurs around big market teams w/ die hard fan bases. They're able to generate a type of media buzz and a sort of self-subsuming, seemingly coherent echo chamber around their players that tend to leave them chronically over-valued in comparison to what the rest of the league (and other GMs therefore) would be willing to pay. Sometimes this is beneficial, as you get more value for the players you trade--Boston does this better than anyone. At other times, and especially if your team is on a downswing, if you're unwilling to trade an asset at his peak value, you might wind up like the Leafs did for years...

A good example of this dynamic can be seen in a comparison of Ryan O'Reilly and Couturier's perceived values (since they're similar players and I can speak about both, being an Avs fan living in Philly--their relative value in trade discussions here has also been brought up in the past). Both are close in age, style, and point output. Weighing both objectively for their on-ice play, I would predict similar development and overall potential, and yet, because O'Reilly played out west and received far less east coast media coverage and die-hard fan base hype, he was generally perceived to have far less value than Couturier when the Avs were attempting to trade him. I remember Flyers fans scoffing at the idea of a straight up O'Reilly for Couturier trade, even though the move likely would've been in the vein of a lateral, "fast-forwarding past the growing pains" type of trade for Philly, as O'Reilly had already shown his offensive potential. Further, imagine for a second how obscene it would have been to you all if the asking price for O'Reilly last June had been a Norris-caliber defenseman, even after coming off a 55 pt season. That's the sort of skew you're currently dealing with--you have a great young defensive center who's yet to show his O potential, but what you're asking is going to be viewed as ridiculous to everyone who doesn't have an orange sweater hanging up in their closet.
- Dissent

No, you've got it wrong -- and you've misjudged this fanbase.

The vast, vast majority of people here are saying "since we DON'T KNOW what Sean Couturier's ceiling is, don't sell low. Assume he'll develop properly, and that's the price if the Flyers are to move him early."

I just don't care about Ryan O'Reilly. That's your problem in Colorado, because your ownership/management let the market dictate what O'Reilly's contract was going to be. Whether they trade him or keep him or whatever, that's on them.

In the Flyers' case for Sean Couturier, all the majority of the fanbase is advocating is patience. So you don't wind up trading Patrick Sharp for Matt Ellison.

I find it funny sometimes the dynamic that occurs when talking about the value of players on big market teams vs. those on smaller market or western teams. While Couturier is a great talent and could probably be traded for either a stable or potential top-pairing defenseman, expecting a franchise, Norris-candidate defenseman in return can only be seen as the sort of systemic over-valuing that occurs around big market teams w/ die hard fan bases. They're able to generate a type of media buzz and a sort of self-subsuming, seemingly coherent echo chamber around their players that tend to leave them chronically over-valued in comparison to what the rest of the league (and other GMs therefore) would be willing to pay. Sometimes this is beneficial, as you get more value for the players you trade--Boston does this better than anyone. At other times, and especially if your team is on a downswing, if you're unwilling to trade an asset at his peak value, you might wind up like the Leafs did for years...

A good example of this dynamic can be seen in a comparison of Ryan O'Reilly and Couturier's perceived values (since they're similar players and I can speak about both, being an Avs fan living in Philly--their relative value in trade discussions here has also been brought up in the past). Both are close in age, style, and point output. Weighing both objectively for their on-ice play, I would predict similar development and overall potential, and yet, because O'Reilly played out west and received far less east coast media coverage and die-hard fan base hype, he was generally perceived to have far less value than Couturier when the Avs were attempting to trade him. I remember Flyers fans scoffing at the idea of a straight up O'Reilly for Couturier trade, even though the move likely would've been in the vein of a lateral, "fast-forwarding past the growing pains" type of trade for Philly, as O'Reilly had already shown his offensive potential. Further, imagine for a second how obscene it would have been to you all if the asking price for O'Reilly last June had been a Norris-caliber defenseman, even after coming off a 55 pt season. That's the sort of skew you're currently dealing with--you have a great young defensive center who's yet to show his O potential, but what you're asking is going to be viewed as ridiculous to everyone who doesn't have an orange sweater hanging up in their closet.
- Dissent

I dont think for a second that people are suggesting that Couterier would get you a Norris caliber D-man, but that "settling" for a 3-4 d-man is not in the best interest of the club when discussing trades.

Ryan O'Reilly is a fantastic young player, but NO, I would not trade Couts straight up for him, but thats based on my opinion of him having a higher upside (and the fact that he is a bigger body)...

No, you've got it wrong -- and you've misjudged this fanbase.

The vast, vast majority of people here are saying "since we DON'T KNOW what Sean Couturier's ceiling is, don't sell low. Assume he'll develop properly, and that's the price if the Flyers are to move him early."

I just don't care about Ryan O'Reilly. That's your problem in Colorado, because your ownership/management let the market dictate what O'Reilly's contract was going to be. Whether they trade him or keep him or whatever, that's on them.

In the Flyers' case for Sean Couturier, all the majority of the fanbase is advocating is patience. So you don't wind up trading Patrick Sharp for Matt Ellison.
- AllInForFlyers

Stated perfectly.

Impossible to know what WPG would be willing to accept. Can you get him for a 2nd rounder and a Phantom? Or for a guy like Cousins?
- bradleyc4

There is no way that WPG lets Buff go for anything close to a 2nd and a phantom...regardless of his exit weight the guy is a top offensive dman in the league, a huge body that can lay a big hit, and for his size is adequately mobile.

He is extremely valuable to the Peg as they don't have an amazing dcore outside of Buff and Bogo. It's possible to get him out of there but it'd take a 1st, a solid prospect, and a roster player at least IMO (this could be tweaked obviously depending on the prospect and roster player but you get the idea)

I'd offer Mtl's 1st, Diaz, and a mid level prospect (maybe Pateryn?)

There is no way that WPG lets Buff go for anything close to a 2nd and a phantom...regardless of his exit weight the guy is a top offensive dman in the league, a huge body that can lay a big hit, and for his size is adequately mobile.

He is extremely valuable to the Peg as they don't have an amazing dcore outside of Buff and Bogo. It's possible to get him out of there but it'd take a 1st, a solid prospect, and a roster player at least IMO (this could be tweaked obviously depending on the prospect and roster player but you get the idea)

I'd offer Mtl's 1st, Diaz, and a mid level prospect (maybe Pateryn?)
- Joel_Eh

Even that might not be enough.....

There is no way that WPG lets Buff go for anything close to a 2nd and a phantom...regardless of his exit weight the guy is a top offensive dman in the league, a huge body that can lay a big hit, and for his size is adequately mobile.

He is extremely valuable to the Peg as they don't have an amazing dcore outside of Buff and Bogo. It's possible to get him out of there but it'd take a 1st, a solid prospect, and a roster player at least IMO (this could be tweaked obviously depending on the prospect and roster player but you get the idea)

I'd offer Mtl's 1st, Diaz, and a mid level prospect (maybe Pateryn?)
- Joel_Eh

I think you are forgetting about Enstrom and the climb that Trouba has made....

Can beggers really afford to be choosers, though?

If his weight and Cheveldayoff/Noel's frustration with him make it possible for him to be had at a cut-rate, it would be hard to not chase that down. He still is one of the biggest point-producing dmen of the past handful of years, despite playing heavy throughout his entire career.

I wouldn't pay much for him, but I wouldn't dismiss him out of hand either.
- Tomahawk

In the case of Byfuglien? Yes, I think we can be choosers. Even if it were for a late pick or future considerations, what with three more years at a $5m+ price tag. That's almost all the money you'd be getting from a Bryzgalov buyout, for yet another big question mark on and off the ice.

I find it funny sometimes the dynamic that occurs when talking about the value of players on big market teams vs. those on smaller market or western teams. While Couturier is a great talent and could probably be traded for either a stable or potential top-pairing defenseman, expecting a franchise, Norris-candidate defenseman in return can only be seen as the sort of systemic over-valuing that occurs around big market teams w/ die hard fan bases. They're able to generate a type of media buzz and a sort of self-subsuming, seemingly coherent echo chamber around their players that tend to leave them chronically over-valued in comparison to what the rest of the league (and other GMs therefore) would be willing to pay. Sometimes this is beneficial, as you get more value for the players you trade--Boston does this better than anyone. At other times, and especially if your team is on a downswing, if you're unwilling to trade an asset at his peak value, you might wind up like the Leafs did for years...

A good example of this dynamic can be seen in a comparison of Ryan O'Reilly and Couturier's perceived values (since they're similar players and I can speak about both, being an Avs fan living in Philly--their relative value in trade discussions here has also been brought up in the past). Both are close in age, style, and point output. Weighing both objectively for their on-ice play, I would predict similar development and overall potential, and yet, because O'Reilly played out west and received far less east coast media coverage and die-hard fan base hype, he was generally perceived to have far less value than Couturier when the Avs were attempting to trade him. I remember Flyers fans scoffing at the idea of a straight up O'Reilly for Couturier trade, even though the move likely would've been in the vein of a lateral, "fast-forwarding past the growing pains" type of trade for Philly, as O'Reilly had already shown his offensive potential. Further, imagine for a second how obscene it would have been to you all if the asking price for O'Reilly last June had been a Norris-caliber defenseman, even after coming off a 55 pt season. That's the sort of skew you're currently dealing with--you have a great young defensive center who's yet to show his O potential, but what you're asking is going to be viewed as ridiculous to everyone who doesn't have an orange sweater hanging up in their closet.
- Dissent

Yes. Everyone on this board is saying that Couturier should be worth Shea Weber 1-for-1. You got it.

Even that might not be enough.....
- Joel_Eh

I agree with you. Just saying that I wouldn't give up much more than that.

There is no way that WPG lets Buff go for anything close to a 2nd and a phantom...regardless of his exit weight the guy is a top offensive dman in the league, a huge body that can lay a big hit, and for his size is adequately mobile.

He is extremely valuable to the Peg as they don't have an amazing dcore outside of Buff and Bogo. It's possible to get him out of there but it'd take a 1st, a solid prospect, and a roster player at least IMO (this could be tweaked obviously depending on the prospect and roster player but you get the idea)

I'd offer Mtl's 1st, Diaz, and a mid level prospect (maybe Pateryn?)
- Joel_Eh

Sweet he is all yours

One less bullet to dodge....

Not suggesting Coburn would net you Edler at all, just that he could be a chip of interest for VAN.

Who are you getting for one year? If you want a vet backup you might have to give him at least 2 just to get him to put ink to paper.

I would love to see Iggy in O and B. 3 years at 4.5-5 would be sweet IMHO. Not sure about Striet but sounds a lot better then trading a young stud for much of the same.

Edit: I'm not wedded to Backstrom at all, just an example. If you could get a vet for 1 year then awesome.
- coffee junkie

I'd rather the Flyers use that Cap space for a younger player. Then to get tied into a multi-year deal with an over 35 player. And more importantly, I'd rather see the Flyers not tie up 10M in Cap space for the next 3 years, when they need to use that to upgrade the defense, if the right move presents itself.

Yes. Everyone on this board is saying that Couturier should be worth Shea Weber 1-for-1. You got it.
- jmatchett383

My thoughts exactly. I don't think we're overvaluing him. It's not just a matter of establishing his trade value individually, but what kind of trade makes sense. If I'm going to trade Couturier, I'd rather it be as a big part of a package for a higher caliber defenseman, than to trade him and little or nothing else for a lesser player.

Can beggers really afford to be choosers, though?

If his weight and Cheveldayoff/Noel's frustration with him make it possible for him to be had at a cut-rate, it would be hard to not chase that down. He still is one of the biggest point-producing dmen of the past handful of years, despite playing heavy throughout his entire career.

I wouldn't pay much for him, but I wouldn't dismiss him out of hand either.
- Tomahawk

Absolutely they can be choosers. And why wouldn't you be? Make the right move, not just make a move. I wouldn't want him even at a closeout going out of business price. No thanks.

Yes. Everyone on this board is saying that Couturier should be worth Shea Weber 1-for-1. You got it.
- jmatchett383

Absolutely they can be choosers. And why wouldn't you be? Make the right move, not just make a move. I wouldn't want him even at a closeout going out of business price. No thanks.
- MJL

Leight

(It's been a while since I've used that one)

Well said. OReilly's contract issues diminish his worth significantly in my eyes and is currently vastly overpaid- thank you CGY. I also think you missed the point here. No one is saying that we can get a Norris Trophy D man. THEY ARE SAYING IT WOULD TAKE THAT FOR US TO ACTUALLY WANT TO TRADE HIM. Yes, we openly know we overvalue the guy due to potential. The point is, no one wants to trade him unless it is a vast over payment.
- coffee junkie

Why I was trying to hedge around the O'Reilly debacle by referencing on-ice performance and value at last June. Also was assuming a package and the over-valuing of said package, probably should've clarified. Even Couturier+2 Firsts likely wouldn't pry a Norris-winner away from the target team. Think about it, you were about to serve up 4 firsts to Nashville last season (circumstances being what they were, I know) and they rejected it. To turn the discussion towards Norris-caliber defensemen and how you could trade for one: You can't. Not without completely blowing up the team as you know it and trading a star player+one of your younger players, imo. It would mean starting the rebuild, which as far as I can tell, nobody wants to do in Philly.

I'd rather the Flyers use that Cap space for a younger player. Then to get tied into a multi-year deal with an over 35 player. And more importantly, I'd rather see the Flyers not tie up 10M in Cap space for the next 3 years, when they need to use that to upgrade the defense, if the right move presents itself.
- MJL

This is pissing in the wind, a lot of unknown this upcoming off season so I can't really agree or disagree. It's maybe the most exciting and unexpected offseason I have been alive for as a Flyers fan (trading for Lindros and trading away Foppa to Nashville was pretty good too).

And which goalie are you getting for one year?

Only on a Philadelphia hockey board can fans be accused of overvaluing players when really, most of us are begging NOT to trade the player because what we're deathly afraid of is the potential undervaluing of a 20-year-old who not a single person knows what his ceiling is.

None of us know. That's why many of us don't want him traded. A package deal featuring Sean Couturier will always be there, because the guy can already play defense and he's 6-4.

Only on a Philadelphia hockey board can fans be accused of overvaluing players when really, most of us are begging NOT to trade the player because what we're deathly afraid of is the potential undervaluing of a 20-year-old who not a single person knows what his ceiling is.

None of us know. That's why many of us don't want him traded. A package deal for Sean Couturier will always be there.
- AllInForFlyers

So what, you're saying Sean Couturier is a Norris caliber player now? As if!

I find it funny sometimes the dynamic that occurs when talking about the value of players on big market teams vs. those on smaller market or western teams. While Couturier is a great talent and could probably be traded for either a stable or potential top-pairing defenseman, expecting a franchise, Norris-candidate defenseman in return can only be seen as the sort of systemic over-valuing that occurs around big market teams w/ die hard fan bases. They're able to generate a type of media buzz and a sort of self-subsuming, seemingly coherent echo chamber around their players that tend to leave them chronically over-valued in comparison to what the rest of the league (and other GMs therefore) would be willing to pay. Sometimes this is beneficial, as you get more value for the players you trade--Boston does this better than anyone. At other times, and especially if your team is on a downswing, if you're unwilling to trade an asset at his peak value, you might wind up like the Leafs did for years...

A good example of this dynamic can be seen in a comparison of Ryan O'Reilly and Couturier's perceived values (since they're similar players and I can speak about both, being an Avs fan living in Philly--their relative value in trade discussions here has also been brought up in the past). Both are close in age, style, and point output. Weighing both objectively for their on-ice play, I would predict similar development and overall potential, and yet, because O'Reilly played out west and received far less east coast media coverage and die-hard fan base hype, he was generally perceived to have far less value than Couturier when the Avs were attempting to trade him. I remember Flyers fans scoffing at the idea of a straight up O'Reilly for Couturier trade, even though the move likely would've been in the vein of a lateral, "fast-forwarding past the growing pains" type of trade for Philly, as O'Reilly had already shown his offensive potential. Further, imagine for a second how obscene it would have been to you all if the asking price for O'Reilly last June had been a Norris-caliber defenseman, even after coming off a 55 pt season. That's the sort of skew you're currently dealing with--you have a great young defensive center who's yet to show his O potential, but what you're asking is going to be viewed as ridiculous to everyone who doesn't have an orange sweater hanging up in their closet.
- Dissent

I disagree with this take. First of all O'Reilly is 2 years older then Couturier, and has played 2 more full Seasons. That is a pretty long time in terms of player development. I think Couturier's upside is higher then O'Reilly's. And I think you're misunderstanding things. I don't think any Flyers fan expects to be able to trade Couturier for Subban or Pietrangelo. All that's being said is that is the type of player we would need back to be willing to trade Couturier. There is a distinct difference there.

I find it funny sometimes the dynamic that occurs when talking about the value of players on big market teams vs. those on smaller market or western teams. While Couturier is a great talent and could probably be traded for either a stable or potential top-pairing defenseman, expecting a franchise, Norris-candidate defenseman in return can only be seen as the sort of systemic over-valuing that occurs around big market teams w/ die hard fan bases. They're able to generate a type of media buzz and a sort of self-subsuming, seemingly coherent echo chamber around their players that tend to leave them chronically over-valued in comparison to what the rest of the league (and other GMs therefore) would be willing to pay. Sometimes this is beneficial, as you get more value for the players you trade--Boston does this better than anyone. At other times, and especially if your team is on a downswing, if you're unwilling to trade an asset at his peak value, you might wind up like the Leafs did for years...

A good example of this dynamic can be seen in a comparison of Ryan O'Reilly and Couturier's perceived values (since they're similar players and I can speak about both, being an Avs fan living in Philly--their relative value in trade discussions here has also been brought up in the past). Both are close in age, style, and point output. Weighing both objectively for their on-ice play, I would predict similar development and overall potential, and yet, because O'Reilly played out west and received far less east coast media coverage and die-hard fan base hype, he was generally perceived to have far less value than Couturier when the Avs were attempting to trade him. I remember Flyers fans scoffing at the idea of a straight up O'Reilly for Couturier trade, even though the move likely would've been in the vein of a lateral, "fast-forwarding past the growing pains" type of trade for Philly, as O'Reilly had already shown his offensive potential. Further, imagine for a second how obscene it would have been to you all if the asking price for O'Reilly last June had been a Norris-caliber defenseman, even after coming off a 55 pt season. That's the sort of skew you're currently dealing with--you have a great young defensive center who's yet to show his O potential, but what you're asking is going to be viewed as ridiculous to everyone who doesn't have an orange sweater hanging up in their closet.
- Dissent

I love Ryan O'Reilly. One helluva player. Exceptional two-way center and has already displayed much more offensive output than Couturier.

But there are two reasons why I like Couturier more:

-- Couturier is an even better defensive center at this stage in their careers. His offensive value is still all potential at this point, but I prefer the better defensive player at this point.

-- He has a better NHL frame to work with. O'Reilly is smallish with little room to grow. Couturier is 6'3" and plenty of opportunity to fill in.

So what, you're saying Sean Couturier is a Norris caliber player now? As if!
- BulliesPhan87

Exactly -- I have NO IDEA what Sean Couturier's ceiling is. I have NO CLUE. Most of the people here who have watched hockey for decades, just like I have, can honestly say they have no idea where he's going to top out.

He's 20 years old! He's played 130 NHL games! I don't know if he's Joe Thornton or Brian Boyle! Is he Vincent Lecavalier or Michal Handzus? I honestly have no idea!

Therefore, in my world, you don't trade the guy until you can at least say, "Oh, yeah. He's closer to Brian Boyle than David Backes."

Exactly -- I have NO IDEA what Sean Couturier's ceiling is. I have NO CLUE. Most of the people here who have watched hockey for decades, just like I have, can honestly say they have no idea where he's going to top out.

He's 20 years old! He's played 130 NHL games! I don't know if he's Joe Thornton or Brian Boyle! Is he Vincent Lecavalier or Michal Handzus? I honestly have no idea!

Therefore, in my world, you don't trade the guy until you can at least say, "Oh, yeah. He's closer to Brian Boyle than David Backes."
- AllInForFlyers

I say if you want to stay competitive and make the playoffs next year (avoid the rebuild), you cash in the unknown for a known. The overvaluing of Couturier is in not wanting to trade him when doing so could accomplish your goal of bringing in some solid D and making your team better as a whole.