Eberle nurse smid and a first for AP and Stewart. Let's make the deal
- Snagglepuss

You're hilarious. An obvious Oiler fan. Stop trying to pawn off Smid.

If I'm the Blues...I want Eberle, Justin Schultz and your 2014 first rounder.

Crosby was an all-star, league MVP, league scoring leader. Malkin was an all-star, league MVP finalist. Either would have gotten far more as UFA's. They are more examples of players getting less as RFA's than they could on the open market.
- Antilles

And every Free Agent is on the open market thus the term "FREE" Agent. Restricted free agency just gives the owning team some fail safes incase another team is willing to pay the player more.

The cost of picks is meant to be a deterrent to signing another team's young players but it still leaves them open to negotiation with anyone.

If a team wants to offer AP 7.5 for 7 years than that's what he's worth. If he accepts that deal then that's what the Blues will have to pay. Being an RFA doesn't mean the player holds less value.

I'm not saying any of this will happen, just that being an RFA doesn't prevent his price from being jacked up.

Pietrangelo's market value is between 6.5 and 7million per year
- bbsunshine92

As an RFA it's not worth anywhere near that.

David Clarkson, Toronto, 7 years, $36.75M, $5.25/yr., modified NMC.
Sergei Gonchar, Dallas, 2 years, $10M, $5/yr.
Boyd Gordon, Edmonton, 3 years, $9M, $3/yr.
Ryane Clowe, New Jersey, 5 years, $24.25M, $4.85/yr.
Andrew Ference, Edmonton, 4 years, $13M, $3.25/yr, NMC.
Tyler Bozak, Toronto, 5 years, $21M, $4.2/yr, modified NTC.

Those are just a sample of the deals given out this offseason, setting aside nonsense from previous seasons like Jeff Finger. Holmgren spends like a drunken sailor, and has missed the mark a fair few times. There's no question of that. To claim he's the "one GM" with that tendency, though, given some of the ludicrous contracts that get handed out yearly in the NHL, by many teams?
- dilbert719

Compare those players at those prices to Hartnell (a better player than Clarkson and Clowe) at 4.75, Simmonds (again, better than Clarkson and Clowe) at 3.975, Voracek at 4.25, and Lecavalier (the best UFA forward available this year) at 4.5. I would assert that Holmgren does not overpay in terms of cap hit, but rather in terms of length. The cap hits, compared to comparable players around the league, are usually lower.

Back to Pietrangelo: he's going to get in excess of $7M. You have to compare his potential contract to players who have signed under the new CBA, because, as we've already seen, with 8 year limits, you can't manage the cap number. Players get paid the same as they did before the lockout, but now without the backdiving, getting league minimum for the last 3 years, contracts. The only comparable, in that case, is Letang, who is a grossly inferior defenseman to Pietrangelo. All Letang can do is skate and pass. Average defender who can't run a PP, even with a veritable All-Star game lineup at his disposal on a nightly basis. Pietrangelo, from my viewing, can do a little bit of everything, and does it all well (or better). He's going to get paid, and sticking your head in the sand and saying "Na-na-na 6.5, I can't hear you, 6.5. Na-na-na" isn't going to change that. If 6.5 was all it would take, then the deal would be done already.

He's better than Letang. And he's younger. If he's your #1 for the future, just pay the man. Don't go, "Hey Alex, we think you're a Norris-caliber defenseman and we want your here for your career. How's $6.5M sound for 8 years with a cap that's going to increase every year for the length of the deal?" That's a straight-up insult to the man. If I were his agent, I'd tell AP, "The Blues are toying with you, you can get a ton more for a long length from teams willing to spend it." If he's your man, just pay him what he's worth and move on. If not, don't act shocked or surprised when he signs a 7-year offer sheet for $7.5M per.
- jmatchett383

That's a fun story. Do you think he goes through all that BS for 1.5m? (the difference in your 2 contracts)

He's an RFA...his negotiating rights are different that Letang's...do you understand that?

your exactly right....they will not let him go via offer sheet....ain't gonna happen....He will get signed ....it's just a matter of how much and for how long and if there will be a NMC in there....If it ever came to a trade the deal would be a huge return.....I just don't see it happening.
- landros 2

RFA's can't get NMC's.

That may be, but it's how it is. His market value is $7.25M/year on a 7-year deal minimum. His agent knows this. The Blues know this. If he can't get it from the Blues, I'm sure his agent can contact teams that are willing to pay it. Then the Blues can end up acting all shocked and offended when they pay their player what he's worth.
- jmatchett383

Just stop. Please read about RFA's before you post anything again. His agent cannot contact any other teams...he has been qualified by the Blues which makes him THEIR property. He's not free to get into contact with other teams and negotiate.

And every Free Agent is on the open market thus the term "FREE" Agent. Restricted free agency just gives the owning team some fail safes incase another team is willing to pay the player more.

The cost of picks is meant to be a deterrent to signing another team's young players but it still leaves them open to negotiation with anyone.

If a team wants to offer AP 7.5 for 7 years than that's what he's worth. If he accepts that deal then that's what the Blues will have to pay. Being an RFA doesn't mean the player holds less value.

I'm not saying any of this will happen, just that being an RFA doesn't prevent his price from being jacked up.
- Hype97

So Briere is worth 6+ million because Flyers were willing to pay that?

Flyers fans seem to be in love with bringing up the possibility of an offer-sheet. They need to look at history. Yes, they can happen, and it can jack up a players price. But most GM's avoid them, because it doesn't help your team at all, and all it does is help jack up prices across the league, so in the long view it hurts your team.

An OS could happen. Blues would match & retaliate. It's highly unlikely, because only a handful of GM's are stupid enough to use them, and at least one, the Flyers, would have to clear cap space before he could sign a player to one.

lol. So you want to argue what Petro deserves because of what he could get from an OS, point out elite players getting paid as RFA's, but say what they could get as an offer sheet doesn't work as an argument? And you psychically know they wanted to accept those deals, but that Petro doesn't want to accept one with the Blues? For all you know a random team may have sent a 9 mil offer sheet to Petro that he didn't sign because he is willing to take less to win in Stl.

You can't have it both ways. Players get less as RFA's than they would on the open market. Even elite players. Could there be other concerns involved? Sure, but you never really know. And those exact same concerns could be involved with Petro.
- Antilles

I never said that players getting offer sheets cant be used as an argument (as a matter of fact it's my entire argument) not sure where you got that.

I said you can't argue that a player is offered more as a UFA because you don't know what Offer sheets they may have been sent as an RFA since they are only reported if accepted.

I can't Physically know anything as knowing is a mental action. I can mentally know that if Crosby or Malkin wanted to hold out for more they could have. You are not forced or obligated to sign a deal you don't want.

Lastly I'm not pretending to know what Petro or any player wants but simply stating that your argument that being an RFA effects the options that that player has to get their money doesn't hold up if there are other teams around the league that want that player and are willing to pay.

IF Petro wants to accept less than he could get from another team to play for the Blues he will if he doesn't he wont and he will get what he believes he is worth because there are plenty of teams willing to pay it.

Compare those players at those prices to Hartnell (a better player than Clarkson and Clowe) at 4.75, Simmonds (again, better than Clarkson and Clowe) at 3.975, Voracek at 4.25, and Lecavalier (the best UFA forward available this year) at 4.5. I would assert that Holmgren does not overpay in terms of cap hit, but rather in terms of length. The cap hits, compared to comparable players around the league, are usually lower.

Back to Pietrangelo: he's going to get in excess of $7M. You have to compare his potential contract to players who have signed under the new CBA, because, as we've already seen, with 8 year limits, you can't manage the cap number. Players get paid the same as they did before the lockout, but now without the backdiving, getting league minimum for the last 3 years, contracts. The only comparable, in that case, is Letang, who is a grossly inferior defenseman to Pietrangelo. All Letang can do is skate and pass. Average defender who can't run a PP, even with a veritable All-Star game lineup at his disposal on a nightly basis. Pietrangelo, from my viewing, can do a little bit of everything, and does it all well (or better). He's going to get paid, and sticking your head in the sand and saying "Na-na-na 6.5, I can't hear you, 6.5. Na-na-na" isn't going to change that. If 6.5 was all it would take, then the deal would be done already.
- rhornsburg

He's going to get paid what players with comparable resumes got paid in the same situation. Sticking your head in the sand and saying "Na-na-na 7.5, I can't hear you, 7.5. Na-na-na" isn't going to change that.

If the money is there then it should be a max contract. If that is 8yrs@7mil per then do it now, 3 years from now it could be 8yrs@10+mil. Of course they could keep up this run of getting their youngsters to sign below market deals so who knows.

His market value is what ever someone is willing to sign him for. And for the best young Dman in the NHL it starts higher than Letangs.
- Marshalle

Exactly, this is a no brainier. This conversation is almost pathetic.

What dmen in the league have more value today? Weber or maybe Karlson because of the flare he brings..

Also the cap is going up which means so are salaries. This guy will be a steal at 8 mill a few years down the road.

Compare those players at those prices to Hartnell (a better player than Clarkson and Clowe) at 4.75, Simmonds (again, better than Clarkson and Clowe) at 3.975, Voracek at 4.25, and Lecavalier (the best UFA forward available this year) at 4.5. I would assert that Holmgren does not overpay in terms of cap hit, but rather in terms of length. The cap hits, compared to comparable players around the league, are usually lower.
- rhornsburg

You're also comparing players who signed under the last CBA to players who just signed, and at the time of the deal, they looked to be too high in dollar value as well.(With the obvious exception of Vinny L, who was a CBO signing and also isn't a direct comparison to the people I listed. His comparable is Briere, and yes, Vinny's deal is better than Danny's.) Simmonds and Voracek also weren't UFAs, which further changes the comparison.

Homer overpays, period. Whether it's years or cap hit, yeah, he overpays. The problem I had was with the suggestion that he's the only one who does. I think part of the issue is people look at the deals the Flyers are reported to have offered Parise and Suter, and the Weber offer sheet, and go "Look at the stupid deals Holmgren put out there!" rather than acknowledging that the players under contract to the Flyers are, for the most part, reasonably close to fair, relative to other deals that are out there.

So Briere is worth 6+ million because Flyers were willing to pay that?

Flyers fans seem to be in love with bringing up the possibility of an offer-sheet. They need to look at history. Yes, they can happen, and it can jack up a players price. But most GM's avoid them, because it doesn't help your team at all, and all it does is help jack up prices across the league, so in the long view it hurts your team.

An OS could happen. Blues would match & retaliate. It's highly unlikely, because only a handful of GM's are stupid enough to use them, and at least one, the Flyers, would have to clear cap space before he could sign a player to one.
- Antilles

Yes, it the law of supply and demand. That's the way it works. Why do you even care? You should be thanking your lucky stars you have him.

You're hilarious. An obvious Oiler fan. Stop trying to pawn off Smid.

If I'm the Blues...I want Eberle, Justin Schultz and your 2014 first rounder.
- djamon

I highly doubt he was "pawning" him off. Smid is very valuable to the Oilers. I imagine that he thought, like I did, that the Blues would want a top-4 roster Dman to possibly soften the blow of losing Pietro. That being said, I think theyd be looking for a less expensive Dman like Petry. So a package like Eberle, Petry, Marincin/Gernat and a 2014 1st would be my offer for Pietro.

All this talk is moot as hes likely to resign in STL with EDM not even putting in an offer.

His contract should be more than Karlsson. Has just as much of offensive upside but plays much better D. I wish he would take less, but the fact is he knows what he's worth. With the cap on the rise, 7 mil per year for one of the leagues best d men won't be bad in 3 years.
- drummer829

Ok I have some time off at work, time to fully explain this situation. STL likely has a 7 or 8 year offer on the table for 6.5-7, aka Doughty/Karlsson money. AP's correct move is to sit on that in hopes that another team offer sheets him; not with intent to leave STL, but to get them to pay him more.

But here's the key: STL has already publicly said they will match any offer sheet, so why would another team offer him an offer sheet if it's just going to be matched? They'll have made an enemy for nothing. So a team will have to offer AP something in the Malkin-range (~9.5M) to get STL to consider not matching. Who is doing that? Philly? They have no cap left to spend almost 10 on one player. DET? When has Detroit ever spent like that on one player? It's not their modus operandi.

STL is absolutely right to offer him 6.5-7 until their bluff is called. They know AP knows he can take $50M for 8 years and still be a UFA at 31, in line for a second huge contract. If he takes a Subban deal to get to UFA, he could get hurt, risking lots of money. This is why AP has been offered and will end up signing a Doughty/Karlsson type contract.

So Briere is worth 6+ million because Flyers were willing to pay that?

Flyers fans seem to be in love with bringing up the possibility of an offer-sheet. They need to look at history. Yes, they can happen, and it can jack up a players price. But most GM's avoid them, because it doesn't help your team at all, and all it does is help jack up prices across the league, so in the long view it hurts your team.

An OS could happen. Blues would match & retaliate. It's highly unlikely, because only a handful of GM's are stupid enough to use them, and at least one, the Flyers, would have to clear cap space before he could sign a player to one.
- Antilles

Again I'm not saying I agree with the action simply pointing out that ignoring the possibility is dangerous. As a matter of fact I am as against offer sheets as you. I'm glad Nashville saved them from themselves by matching (Though I'm the minority) I'm not talking about offer sheets because I like the Flyers I'm doing it because they exist and effect RFA negotiations.

Is briere worth 6 mil? No if he was they wouldn't have bought him out. He's worth what Montreal gave him because that's what someone was willing to pay for his services. Value is determined by the market and that's what it took to sign him.

You seem to like to over look the fact that to lock up a player you need to have give and take. The Flyers overpaid briere, yes. Did they have to to get a player that they (and many other teams at the time) wanted absolutely. With long term contracts you pay an average hit. The average hit was 6 for Briere but because it was in his declining years this years actual salary would've been 2 mil.

I agree the Blues would match and this has NOTHING to do with the Flyers given the fact that they are in NO position to offer sheet him. You have no idea who has used offer sheets because they aren't made public unless accepted so you have no clue what other GM's have done.


Drop the Flyers fan crap. Pegging a whole fanbase is a lazy way to have an argument. I'm my own person as are you and I often don't agree with what other Flyer fans say. Go look at the Flyer's board or any teams board and you'll see plenty of different opinions.

So Briere is worth 6+ million because Flyers were willing to pay that?

Flyers fans seem to be in love with bringing up the possibility of an offer-sheet. They need to look at history. Yes, they can happen, and it can jack up a players price. But most GM's avoid them, because it doesn't help your team at all, and all it does is help jack up prices across the league, so in the long view it hurts your team.

An OS could happen. Blues would match & retaliate. It's highly unlikely, because only a handful of GM's are stupid enough to use them, and at least one, the Flyers, would have to clear cap space before he could sign a player to one.
- Antilles

Scott Stevens 1990, Dave Christian 1991, Brendan Shananan 1991, Micheal Goulet 1991, Marty McSorely 1993, Petr Nedved 1994, Scott Stevens again 1994, Shane Corson 1995 and Steve Bernier 2008. I love being lectured about offersheets by a blues fan. No team has used an offersheet more than the Blues.

I can't Physically know anything as knowing is a mental action.
- Hype97

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/psychically


You suggested Crosyby and Malkin represented elite RFA's getting paid like UFA's, that RFA status doesn't give a team an advantage negotiating with a player. But want to ignore the fact that being an RFA could have effected their salary level. You are guessing they wouldn't have gotten more as UFAs. You have no idea.

Exactly, this is a no brainier. This conversation is almost pathetic.

What dmen in the league have more value today? Weber or maybe Karlson because of the flare he brings..

Also the cap is going up which means so are salaries. This guy will be a steal at 8 mill a few years down the road.
- acmilano3

Read my post above to see why you're wrong.

I highly doubt he was "pawning" him off. Smid is very valuable to the Oilers. I imagine that he thought, like I did, that the Blues would want a top-4 roster Dman to possibly soften the blow of losing Pietro. That being said, I think theyd be looking for a less expensive Dman like Petry. So a package like Eberle, Petry, Marincin/Gernat and a 2014 1st would be my offer for Pietro.

All this talk is moot as hes likely to resign in STL with EDM not even putting in an offer.
- MaximumBone

I agree in the end. But you know the Oilers fans have been putting Smid into every deal they've been trying to make this summer. He may have top 4 value to you guys, but he's barely one on St. Louis. (and probably won't be one on the Oilers in 3 years either). It's only because the Oiler's defense sucks that he gets top 4 minutes.

Scott Stevens 1990, Dave Christian 1991, Brendan Shananan 1991, Micheal Goulet 1991, Marty McSorely 1993, Petr Nedved 1994, Scott Stevens again 1994, Shane Corson 1995 and Steve Bernier 2008. I love being lectured about offersheets by a blues fan. No team has used an offersheet more than the Blues.
- Marshalle

So, let's see, a bunch of stuff from almost 20 years ago, and one OS that everyone paying attention knew was purely a retaliation for the Backes offer-sheet. Get with the times. Offersheets are hardly used anymore, and don't help the team making them. Nothing you said contradicts that.

Ok I have some time off at work, time to fully explain this situation. STL likely has a 7 or 8 year offer on the table for 6.5-7, aka Doughty/Karlsson money. AP's correct move is to sit on that in hopes that another team offer sheets him; not with intent to leave STL, but to get them to pay him more.

But here's the key: STL has already publicly said they will match any offer sheet, so why would another team offer him an offer sheet if it's just going to be matched? They'll have made an enemy for nothing. So a team will have to offer AP something in the Malkin-range (~9.5M) to get STL to consider not matching. Who is doing that? Philly? They have no cap left to spend almost 10 on one player. DET? When has Detroit ever spent like that on one player? It's not their modus operandi.

STL is absolutely right to offer him 6.5-7 until their bluff is called. They know AP knows he can take $50M for 8 years and still be a UFA at 31, in line for a second huge contract. If he takes a Subban deal to get to UFA, he could get hurt, risking lots of money. This is why AP has been offered and will end up signing a Doughty/Karlsson type contract.
- isles10289

This. There is no reason for St. Louis to offer Petro more money right now. There is no reason for Petro to accept their offer right now. There is no reason for another team to offer-sheet Petro. Thus there is no reason to expect anything other than Petro eventually signing with the Blues to a contract similar to what other players in his situation signed.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/psychically


You suggested Crosyby and Malkin represented elite RFA's getting paid like UFA's, that RFA status doesn't give a team an advantage negotiating with a player. But want to ignore the fact that being an RFA could have effected their salary level. You are guessing they wouldn't have gotten more as UFAs. You have no idea.
- Antilles

You mean just like you are guessing that they would have gotten more as UFAs? You have yet to name one specific negotiation advantage that a team gets with an RFA. What is it that makes a player take less then he can get elsewhere if offered. Someone walks up and offers a million more and the guy goes "hmmm, well no thanks I'm an RFA so I'm going to take the lower offer from my current team."?

AP could very well take less from the Blues than he could get elsewhere. I'm not saying that he will get stolen away. I'm just saying that ignoring the possibility of him getting a better offer and assuming he will take 6.5 mil is foolish.

You going nananana I can't here you RFA RFA RFA nananana, won't change that.

I agree in the end. But you know the Oilers fans have been putting Smid into every deal they've been trying to make this summer. He may have top 4 value to you guys, but he's barely one on St. Louis. (and probably won't be one on the Oilers in 3 years either). It's only because the Oiler's defense sucks that he gets top 4 minutes.
- djamon

Yeah, but hes proven the ability to play top-4 minutes and actually likes living in Edmonton. Hes endeared himself to a very blue-collar fanbase. Likely becomes their #4 down the road hopefully playing the Methot/Scuderi role on a pairing with J. Schultz.