You mean just like you are guessing that they would have gotten more as UFAs? You have yet to name one specific negotiation advantage that a team gets with an RFA. What is it that makes a player take less then he can get elsewhere if offered. Someone walks up and offers a million more and the guy goes "hmmm, well no thanks I'm an RFA so I'm going to take the lower offer from my current team."?

AP could very well take less from the Blues than he could get elsewhere. I'm not saying that he will get stolen away. I'm just saying that ignoring the possibility of him getting a better offer and assuming he will take 6.5 mil is foolish.

You going nananana I can't here you RFA RFA RFA nananana, won't change that.
- Hype97

The point is, who is offering him more money? No team is going to make an offer sheet simply to be matched, which STL has promised to do.

Read my post above to see why you're wrong.
- isles10289

Nashville made the same comments about Weber. He still got one. Actually, he had a few and decided on Phila.

As a team you can come out and say whatever you want. That does not etch it in stone. It does not really mean anything. Who cares what a team says through the media. It's irrelevant.

Offer sheets are rarely successful, but are not going away and this thought that they ruin relationships is hilarious. It's business.

If they want to low ball they can certainly continue with that strategy. If you want to win and do so consistently than sometimes you have to put your big boy pants on and spend money.

The bottom line is the teams who win it all theses days spend money and they do so on big time defensemen.

So, let's see, a bunch of stuff from almost 20 years ago, and one OS that everyone paying attention knew was purely a retaliation for the Backes offer-sheet. Get with the times. Offersheets are hardly used anymore, and don't help the team making them. Nothing you said contradicts that.
- Antilles

So you get to use past dealings to highlight your points but for my arguement only the present matters. Cute.

Nashville made the same comments about Weber. He still got one. Actually, he had a few and decided on Phila.

As a team you can come out and say whatever you want. That does not etch it in stone. It does not really mean anything. Who cares what a team says through the media. It's irrelevant.

Offer sheets are rarely successful, but are not going away and this thought that they ruin relationships is hilarious. It's business.

If they want to low ball they can certainly continue with that strategy. If you want to win and do so consistently than sometimes you have to put your big boy pants on and spend money.

The bottom line is the teams who win it all theses days spend money and they do so on big time defensemen.
- acmilano3

Just because the strategy failed once doesn't mean it's a failure. Who is going to make this offer to AP? There's really no team that can make that offer right now. And STL knows this.

Blues fans all say it doesn't matter if there are offer sheets because they would be matched regardless. Probably true. But the biggest issue with them is they would take control away from Blues management. They would all of a sudden be down from a whole host of options to 3 option. Match, Don't and take the picks, work out a deal with the offering team. Once an offer sheet is signed it is a huge deal.

If they have not even begun negotiations then its not a good sign. I have no doubt AP will be a Blue next year though. Likely in the 8 yr 50 mill range.

You have yet to name one specific negotiation advantage that a team gets with an RFA.
- Hype97

Do you even follow hockey? RFA's get less $$ than UFA's. I don't need to name specific negotiation advantages, it's just how it works, and I'm not sure why you are posting about contract stuff if you are that unaware of how contracts go literally every off season.

And for the record as much as i would love to have AP i dont want to lose the associated picks. I love the draft and next year its in Philly so do they really want to host and not have any picks.

The point is, who is offering him more money? No team is going to make an offer sheet simply to be matched, which STL has promised to do.
- isles10289

When has a team not said that they will match any offer sheet. What are they going to say? "We might not match so you should probably take a shot at him"

The Blues probably would match any OS. But them saying it doesn't stop a team with the right kind of space to do it from trying to construct a deal that has a chance at strapping them too much.

That's what the Flyers did with Weber. Preds said they would match and they did but the deal as constructed gave them pause and they had to seriously think about it and get approval.

I didn't like it and I'm glad Nashville matched. It's shady business but within the rules so there's nothing you can do.

So you get to use past dealings to highlight your points but for my arguement only the present matters. Cute.
- Marshalle

Which things from 2 decades and 3 CBA's ago did I use to support my argument again? And you didn't make an argument, you just pointed out a long time ago the Blues used offer-sheets. That makes no comment on the fact they don't work.

Just stop. Please read about RFA's before you post anything again. His agent cannot contact any other teams...he has been qualified by the Blues which makes him THEIR property. He's not free to get into contact with other teams and negotiate.
- djamon

This is incorrect. Because STL tendered AP a qualifying offer, they retained matching ability. Had they not given him that offer, he'd be UFA right now. The QO keeps him RFA.

And for the record as much as i would love to have AP i dont want to lose the associated picks. I love the draft and next year its in Philly so do they really want to host and not have any picks.
- Marshalle

So ensuring you have a 1st round draft pick in a draft you are hosting is more important than making your team better?

Which things from 2 decades and 3 CBA's ago did I use to support my argument again? And you didn't make an argument, you just pointed out a long time ago the Blues used offer-sheets. That makes no comment on the fact they don't work.
- Antilles

If it gets a cash strapped team to blow its budget and have to move other assets in order to afford AP then it worked.

And for the record as much as i would love to have AP i dont want to lose the associated picks. I love the draft and next year its in Philly so do they really want to host and not have any picks.
- Marshalle

Plus, your pick's gonna be in the top 10. So it'll have value.

When has a team not said that they will match any offer sheet. What are they going to say? "We might not match so you should probably take a shot at him"

The Blues probably would match any OS. But them saying it doesn't stop a team with the right kind of space to do it from trying to construct a deal that has a chance at strapping them too much.

That's what the Flyers did with Weber. Preds said they would match and they did but the deal as constructed gave them pause and they had to seriously think about it and get approval.

I didn't like it and I'm glad Nashville matched. It's shady business but within the rules so there's nothing you can do.
- Hype97

And what team is making this offer? STL has done their research; they know the cap situations for each team. The cap went down to 64 this season. Who can afford to offer AP something in the 9.5 range (because any less will def be matched)? NO ONE. Please present a plausible option.

This is incorrect. Because STL tendered AP a qualifying offer, they retained matching ability. Had they not given him that offer, he'd be UFA right now. The QO keeps him RFA.
- isles10289

He's still their property and not allowed to negotiate with any other team.

Do you even follow hockey? RFA's get less $$ than UFA's. I don't need to name specific negotiation advantages, it's just how it works, and I'm not sure why you are posting about contract stuff if you are that unaware of how contracts go literally every off season.
- Antilles

Claude Giroux would've been an RFA and got a huge deal. I'm asking what about being an RFA says they have to get less money. If all you can say is "RFA's get less $$ than UFA's. That's just how it works." Than I'm willing to bet that I understand contracts better than you.

Most RFA's get less than UFA's you're right. But that's not because "It's just how it works." It's because most RFAs are still developing and UFA's are proven commodities. AP as an RFA is already a proven commodity with room to grow.

So just to make sure I understand and we aren't arguing about something that we agree on. What do you think is a fair deal for AP. What should the blues offer?

He's still their property and not allowed to negotiate with any other team.
- djamon

Umm false. How else do you think RFA's receive offer sheets? RESTRICTED free agent= free agent with restrictions=free agent but still at his teams mercy (with matching power). The QO retains the matching power.

And what team is making this offer? STL has done their research; they know the cap situations for each team. The cap went down to 64 this season. Who can afford to offer AP something in the 9.5 range (because any less will def be matched)? NO ONE. Please present a plausible option.
- isles10289

Calgary Flames »
$53,696,250 $11,315,000
Edmonton Oilers »
$57,661,667 $11,460,833
Colorado Avalanche »
$55,058,333 $11,951,667
Ottawa Senators »
$49,685,833 $15,464,167
Florida Panthers »
$50,665,375 $18,457,125
Winnipeg Jets »
$45,808,500 $19,716,500
New York Islanders »
$42,194,476 $22,955,524

All have the $ available to do it cap wise. Not saying they would or should just saying that it isn't an impossibility. Saying "We will match any offer" is Rhetoric and a defensive measure. Every team has a number they at which they would rather take 4 1sts for.

Claude Giroux would've been an RFA and got a huge deal. I'm asking what about being an RFA says they have to get less money. If all you can say is "RFA's get less $$ than UFA's. That's just how it works." Than I'm willing to bet that I understand contracts better than you.

Most RFA's get less than UFA's you're right. But that's not because "It's just how it works." It's because most RFAs are still developing and UFA's are proven commodities. AP as an RFA is already a proven commodity with room to grow.

So just to make sure I understand and we aren't arguing about something that we agree on. What do you think is a fair deal for AP. What should the blues offer?
- Hype97

No...it's because UFA's can negotiate with any team, whereas RFA's can only negotiate with one. The market for a UFA player drives up his contract amount. If you're lucky (like all Flyer RFA's apparently) and your team says "f!ck it...just give him the money" you can make close to UFA money. But in the vast majority of situations UFA's make far more.

Umm false. How else do you think RFA's receive offer sheets? RESTRICTED free agent= free agent with restrictions=free agent but still at his teams mercy (with matching power). The QO retains the matching power.
- isles10289

Offer sheets are not negotiated...they're OFFERED. They can either be accepted or refused...but they're not negotiated.

Edit - And the QO entitles them to compensation.

No...it's because UFA's can negotiate with any team, whereas RFA's can only negotiate with one. The market for a UFA player drives up his contract amount. If you're lucky (like all Flyer RFA's apparently) and your team says "f!ck it...just give him the money" you can make close to UFA money. But in the vast majority of situations UFA's make far more.
- djamon

RFA's can receive offers from any team. And it's not let's just give him money it's lets pay him now to avoid losing him as a UFA in a few years.

Forget about the Norris. Everyone here knows the Norris is not a true representation of all around defensemen.

AP is all ready better than the players mentioned. Having watched letang and watched him under pressure in person...AP is a tier above. He's on the Chara or Weber level.

If you still do not think so then consider what you would accept in return for him. If we are talking about a trade that would have to include players like Read, Schenn, Coburn, Hagg and a number 1 pick then the return is a player that is worth 8 mill a year easy. The flyers would not even do that for weber. Not saying they would for AP, but the flyers would only consider moving that much for a flat out stud 2 way d in his mid twenties.

The bottom line is if St. Louis is going to continue to be a decent team with promise which is what they are today and let's be honest that's a healthy change from the past 10 or 20 years then they need to be prepared to spend money.
- acmilano3

Exactly. Thank you for pointing out the glaring disconnect in some of the reasoning in this thread.

Some Blues fans want the world for Pietrangelo in trade but defend not having him signed by now because management wants to save a couple bucks?

Calgary Flames »
$53,696,250 $11,315,000
Edmonton Oilers »
$57,661,667 $11,460,833
Colorado Avalanche »
$55,058,333 $11,951,667
Ottawa Senators »
$49,685,833 $15,464,167
Florida Panthers »
$50,665,375 $18,457,125
Winnipeg Jets »
$45,808,500 $19,716,500
New York Islanders »
$42,194,476 $22,955,524

All have the $ available to do it cap wise. Not saying they would or should just saying that it isn't an impossibility. Saying "We will match any offer" is Rhetoric and a defensive measure. Every team has a number they at which they would rather take 4 1sts for.
- Hype97

I said plausible options. None of those teams is plausible. They're either rebuilding, low spending, or in OTT and WPG cases, already have depth on D so they won't spend almost 10M on AP. STL is right to stay at Doughty/Karlsson money, because the odds of AP receiving an unmatchable offer sheet are very low.

When has a team not said that they will match any offer sheet. What are they going to say? "We might not match so you should probably take a shot at him"

The Blues probably would match any OS. But them saying it doesn't stop a team with the right kind of space to do it from trying to construct a deal that has a chance at strapping them too much.

That's what the Flyers did with Weber. Preds said they would match and they did but the deal as constructed gave them pause and they had to seriously think about it and get approval.

I didn't like it and I'm glad Nashville matched. It's shady business but within the rules so there's nothing you can do.
- Hype97

There's nothing shady about it. It's was in the old cab. It's in the new one as well. As is rev sharing. The owners of all teams signed it. You can't accept rev sharing dollars and then cry when offer sheets are used.

If a team thinks it makes sense to spend 4 or 5 number ones and can clear the cap space then have it.

There are teams in the nhl that would consider an offer sheet for AP. Calgary, Phila, buff, Detroit even colorado. Just because a team is at the cap today does not mean they will be there tomorrow.

It does not really matter, however. The blues are sending a message to the rest of their players that are really ready to do what it takes to win or winning is just not really that important.

I do not think AP will be moved but it will be interesting to see who is moved because currently the Blues cannot fit AP, Stewart, and Jake Allen under the cap.