it's still worth giving up minor assets like that if it gives us a chance of finding another Read or Gustafsson.
- JAKEw1234

I'm not saying there aren't undrafted UFA prospects that are worth that risk, just that the copy-cat signings generally don't turn out anywhere near as well as the examples that inspired them.

A good example is Hovinen... Rinne's success prompted them to let Eriksson walk to sign him mostly b/c he was 6'7 and Scandinavian -- he was an unmitigated bust.

Is Kyle Flanagan going to be anywhere near as good as Matt Read? So far it doesn't appear that way.

Brunner was a great find... the next great undrafted prospect isn't going to come from other teams' efforts at mining Alpine Europe further for another Brunner.... it's going to come from another unexpected, untapped source that currently isn't on anybody's radar.

It's absolutely misleading. The Flyers trading Ratchuk for Legein has zero to do with Couturier. It was completely separate transaction.

There's nothing wrong with the Flyers approach to undrafted Free Agents. It's no different then drafting players. Most aren't going to work out. And it still comes down to choices. They could've done something else. And honestly, let's not gloss over that they really gave nothing away. Legein is pretty much a career AHL player, whom LA just declined to qualify. This again is an overreaction. And a mountain made out of a molehill.
- MJL

You're right, trading Ratchuk for Legein had zero to do with Couturier.

But trading him and a 6th rounder for future considerations did. They had to move him and a pick for a bag of nothing because they had ECHL level players signed to NHL contracts and taking up slots.

Legein is not the issue. It's signing stiffs to NHL deals and then watching them play for Trenton that is the issue. It's guys like Testwuide, Brown and Rowe counting towards the 50 contract limit.

It isn't a big deal overall, but it is an issue when you have to give away assets because of foolish contracts. That's all anyone is saying. Of all the undrafted FA's that the Flyers have signed that wasn't the target of several teams that has become a NHL player is Gustafsson.

Obviously, cases like Read or Raffl, you continue to pursue. But using slots on guys like Testwuide, Rowe, Brown and others generally hasn't worked out.

I was just reviewing the salary arbitration list for RFAs. Some really interesting names on their besides the Jets players. Brendan Smith, Sam Gagner, and Jake Muzzin. I wonder if there will be any awards that teams walk away from the player like Clarke MacArthur a few years ago.

Also, I am very intrigued by the Blues with Alex P. Not that I believe they will move him, but I kind of thought his deal would be the first to get completed not one of the last. I would have figured they would have dealt JayBo considering he is an UFA next summer and I highly doubt he will be taking that much of a discount on his next contract, especially how the market has played out this summer even with the reduced cap ceiling.

It's irrelevant that other teams weren't beating Brown or Rowe's door down. And I don't think any of us have that factual information, to know how many teams were interested in those players as undrafted Free Agents. If the Flyers scouts saw something and felt that they were players they should take a chance on. Then that's all that matters. Real easy to sit back and judge after the fact, based on what players turned out, and which didn't. The Flyers don't have that luxury.
- MJL

Yep, it is easy to sit back and judge it after the fact. That is how you identify mistakes and avoid repeating them.

Like using NHL contract slots on ECHL level talent, and having to give away assets so your first rounder can play in the NHL. Like drafting a 6th round talent in the third round.

You're right, trading Ratchuk for Legein had zero to do with Couturier.

But trading him and a 6th rounder for future considerations did. They had to move him and a pick for a bag of nothing because they had ECHL level players signed to NHL contracts and taking up slots.

Legein is not the issue. It's signing stiffs to NHL deals and then watching them play for Trenton that is the issue. It's guys like Testwuide, Brown and Rowe counting towards the 50 contract limit.

It isn't a big deal overall, but it is an issue when you have to give away assets because of foolish contracts. That's all anyone is saying. Of all the undrafted FA's that the Flyers have signed that wasn't the target of several teams that has become a NHL player is Gustafsson.

Obviously, cases like Read or Raffl, you continue to pursue. But using slots on guys like Testwuide, Rowe, Brown and others generally hasn't worked out.
- Jsaquella

They moved a bag of nothing for a bag of nothing. They gave away nothing! To make the NHL team better! That is the objective. You have the luxury of knowing after the fact that a Rowe, or Brown, didn't work out. The Flyers don't have that. You keep stating that certain players weren't targeted by other teams. How do you know that?

We had this same conversation the other night! How many times has this happened? Once? Mountain out of a molehill.

When the result can be you find a Read or Gustafsson. Keep doing it!

With Centers 1-3 locked up for 5 years or so what type of return could laughton bring in combination for a D player? Or is it worth using Laughton on the 4th line?

Yep, it is easy to sit back and judge it after the fact. That is how you identify mistakes and avoid repeating them.

Like using NHL contract slots on ECHL level talent, and having to give away assets so your first rounder can play in the NHL. Like drafting a 6th round talent in the third round.
- Jsaquella

Referring to Z2?

Yep, it is easy to sit back and judge it after the fact. That is how you identify mistakes and avoid repeating them.

Like using NHL contract slots on ECHL level talent, and having to give away assets so your first rounder can play in the NHL. Like drafting a 6th round talent in the third round.
- Jsaquella

You can't identify a player as a mistake before giving the player a chance. I wish player evaluations was that exact. But it's not. Obviously at the time, the scouts and talent evaluators thought that the player might have a future. For whatever reason.
This can be applied to even players drafted in the first round. Some never make it and don't pan out.
And who's to say what label applied to a player is correct? One teams' 6th round talent is another 3rd round talent.

And honestly, let's not gloss over that they really gave nothing away. Legein is pretty much a career AHL player, whom LA just declined to qualify. This again is an overreaction. And a mountain made out of a molehill.
- MJL

Real easy to sit back and judge after the fact, based on what players turned out, and which didn't. The Flyers don't have that luxury.
- MJL

Did you not just sit back and judge the Legein trade based on results "after the fact"?

Yep, it is easy to sit back and judge it after the fact. That is how you identify mistakes and avoid repeating them.
- Jsaquella

A foreign concept to some, it seems.

Did you not just sit back and judge the Legein trade by results "after the fact"?
- Tomahawk

The difference is I'm not criticizing the Flyers for taking a chance on Legein. I hope they keep doing it.
The irony is that you're criticizing the Flyers after the fact, for taking a chance on players that didn't work out. And stating look at what it cost them! My goodness, a 6th round pick and a career AHL player, who is now out of a job!

With Centers 1-3 locked up for 5 years or so what type of return could laughton bring in combination for a D player? Or is it worth using Laughton on the 4th line?
- jstross

I believe Laughton could be used in the dreaded "top prospect" role in acquiring a top flight d-man. Otherwise, I can see his rookie year much like Coots with 4th lines minutes and gradually increasing his responsibilities. In my opinion, he would have to look really out of place to be sent back to Junior.

A foreign concept to some, it seems.
- Tomahawk

If you think it's that easy, maybe you should apply. Player evaluations are not an exact science. The fact that Andrew Rowe didn't work out, isn't going to help you better identify which players will work out, and which will, in the future. Each player is judged on his own merits.

I believe Laughton could be used in the dreaded "top prospect" role in acquiring a top flight d-man. Otherwise, I can see his rookie year much like Coots with 4th lines minutes and gradually increasing his responsibilities. In my opinion, he would have to look really out of place to be sent back to Junior.
- ravishingone

Yeah juniors seems like a waste of time and would only be done to hide salary towards the cap.

The difference is I'm not criticizing the Flyers for taking a chance on Legein. I hope they keep doing it.
The irony is that you're criticizing the Flyers after the fact, for taking a chance on players that didn't work out. And stating look at what it cost them! My goodness, a 6th round pick and a career AHL player, who is now out of a job!
- MJL

At the time, Legein was just one season removed from a pretty solid 24-goal AHL season and looked like he might have a future as a bottom-six NHL forward before some off-ice stuff in ADK saw him banished to the ECHL. The kid wasn't chopped liver... he was a good depth prospect. Of course, a couple of years later, we can sit back and say "career AHL player, who is now out of a job!". But that would be too easy, right?

At the time, Legein was just one season removed from a pretty solid 24-goal AHL season and looked like he might have a future as a bottom-six NHL forward before some off-ice stuff in ADK saw him banished to the ECHL. The kid wasn't chopped liver... a good depth prospect. Of course, a couple of years later, we can sit back and say "career AHL player, who is now out of a job!".
- Tomahawk

The Flyers made the right choice. They gave away nothing. And they made the team better. That is the objective.
Contradiction after contradiction. When it comes to your side of the argument, you want to look after the fact. Now you want to go back in time to what Legein was at the time, to try and show how the Flyers screwed up. Keep the same standard for each player. At the time, what did the Flyers feel about Rowe, Testuwide, etc.

The Flyers made the right choice. They gave away nothing. And they made the team better. That is the objective.
Contradiction after contradiction. When it comes to your side of the argument, you want to look after the fact. Now you want to go back in time to what Legein was at the time, to try and show how the Flyers screwed up. Keep the same standard for each player. At the time, what did the Flyers feel about Rowe, Testuwide, etc.
- MJL

Maybe you didn't notice, but I was just building off your idea that you can't judge moves based on the retrospective value of the players involved to point out how ironic it was that you approve of that deal because Legein hasn't panned out.

Anyway, good night.

The difference is I'm not criticizing the Flyers for taking a chance on Legein. I hope they keep doing it.
The irony is that you're criticizing the Flyers after the fact, for taking a chance on players that didn't work out. And stating look at what it cost them! My goodness, a 6th round pick and a career AHL player, who is now out of a job!
- MJL

Nobody is criticizing them for taking a chance on Legein.

We're criticizing them for signing ECHL level talent to NHL contracts and not having enough contract slots to let Couturier play until after they gave away a AHL player and a 6th rounder for future considerations.

Referring to Z2?
- jstross

Yes. He may well make the NHL someday, but he will probably never be more than a 4th liner. He likely would have been available later in the draft.

The Flyers made the right choice. They gave away nothing. And they made the team better. That is the objective.
Contradiction after contradiction. When it comes to your side of the argument, you want to look after the fact. Now you want to go back in time to what Legein was at the time, to try and show how the Flyers screwed up. Keep the same standard for each player. At the time, what did the Flyers feel about Rowe, Testuwide, etc.
- MJL

Well considering they used quite a lot of NHL contract slots on guys that turned out to be ECHLer & 4th line AHL talent, then I'd say they should definitely look at things after the fact and why they felt it was a smart decision to offer contracts to older undrafted guys(most of the Testwuide type guys were in their 20's when signed) who couldn't even dress regularly for the Phantoms.

The bottom line is, they have used assets poorly. A contract slot is an asset. Having a NHL contract slot playing third line in the ECHL is poor asset management.

It's not about Legein and a 6th rounder, that's merely a symptom. The issue is poor asset management.

Yes. He may well make the NHL someday, but he will probably never be more than a 4th liner. He likely would have been available later in the draft.
- Jsaquella

Wasted pick IMO. Homer could've traded down in that situation and get some extra picks in future drafts as chips. I believe he could've easily traded down for a 4th this year and a 4th next year and still got his man.

Yes. He may well make the NHL someday, but he will probably never be more than a 4th liner. He likely would have been available later in the draft.
- Jsaquella

See but he's the kind of guy that I'm excited to see on the 4th line, and nothing more. And as an added bonus, he doesn't need nearly as much developmental time, as we don't want him in the NHL for his hockey skills. We want him for his locker room presence, energy on ice, his agitation factor, and his personality (in that players like him tend to be fan favorites). He doesn't have to improve his hockey very much to make the NHL.

Wasted pick IMO. Homer could've traded down in that situation and get some extra picks in future drafts as chips. I believe he could've easily traded down for a 4th this year and a 4th next year and still got his man.
- jstross

I think he'll be a good agitator, and possibly replace Rinaldo, if Zac manages to land a bigger deal elsewhere.

But much like Garrett Klotz, the Flyers used an early round pick on a player that wasn't the most talented guy on the board.

How would the Flyers drafting after the 1st round stack up against the rest of the league?

See but he's the kind of guy that I'm excited to see on the 4th line, and nothing more. And as an added bonus, he doesn't need nearly as much developmental time, as we don't want him in the NHL for his hockey skills. We want him for his locker room presence, energy on ice, his agitation factor, and his personality (in that players like him tend to be fan favorites). He doesn't have to improve his hockey very much to make the NHL.
- JAKEw1234

Super. I would have rather taken Jimmy Lodge in the 3rd, then taken Goulbourne in the 5th round, because he likely would have been there in the 5th round.