That's why I'm wondering how a pro-rated LTIR portion works. As well as the other question I asked calrification on.

...MJL....
...MJL....
...EM JAY ELL!!!
- jmatchett383

It works just like it does in season terms, but you pro-rate the amounts depending on how many days in the season are left, then divide it by the total number of days in the season to find how much benefit you get against the daily cap allowance.

I think this is how it works.

Say the cap is 50M and the Flyers are right up against it and Prongers cap hit is 5M. If the team LTIRs him to start the year, they will have 2.5M in cap space midway through the season. That will allow them to trade for a player making 5M annually.

If the Flyers are at 45M then at the midway point, they will have 5M to spend. This will allow them to trade for a player making 10M annually. If they use that whole 10M then they can LTIR Pronger and open up another 5M.
- PhillySportsGuy

I think he was asking more about a scenario where a player gets put on LTIR at some point during the season, not at the beginning.

It works just like it does in season terms, but you pro-rate the amounts depending on how many days in the season are left, then divide it by the total number of days in the season to find how much benefit you get against the daily cap allowance.
- Tomahawk

I'm sorry, but I think I'd actually have to take about an hour and just sit there and scribble down random numbers to figure all of this out.

Much easier to say that I think kittens are cute.

Okay. So, does LTIR basically give them space, counting the injured player's contract?

For example, say the cap is $50M and a player is making $5M. If they LTIR him with a cap of exactly $50M, their cap allowance is now $55M with a current cap of $50M, not a current cap of $45M (cap minus the LTIR'ed player). So instead of taking away his salary from the team's cap, it basically adds his salary to the team's cap and that sum is the new allowance?

Which brings me to another question. Is the same scenario, halfway through the season, they need to LTIR a player making $2M. His LTIR allowance is $1M. Does that get added to the $55M cap allowance, or...how does that work?
- jmatchett383

No that's really not correct. I understand what you're getting at. When I get home in about an hour, I will make a post that clears that up.

I think he was asking more about a scenario where a player gets put on LTIR at some point during the season, not at the beginning.
- Tomahawk

Yes, that was my question.

Okay, easy scenario. Team has cap hit of $50M, LTIR'd player making $5M at beginning of season, allowance is now $55M. No moves are made, at EXACTLY HALF WAY through a season (in terms of days), a player making $2M is placed on LTIR. What happens to their allowable cap with respect to that player's LTIR?

Yes, that was my question.

Okay, easy scenario. Team has cap hit of $50M, LTIR'd player making $5M at beginning of season, allowance is now $55M. No moves are made, at EXACTLY HALF WAY through a season (in terms of days), a player making $2M is placed on LTIR. What happens to their allowable cap with respect to that player's LTIR?
- jmatchett383

They have another 2M of LTIR Cap space to work with. LTIR Cap space is different from normal Cap space.

They have another 2M of LTIR Cap space to work with. LTIR Cap space is different from normal Cap space.
- MJL

But if it's half way through the season, don't they only get the pro-rated portion? Or is the answer to my question exactly what you just posted, that the cap hit for a player acquired half way through is 1/2 his cap hit, but a player on LTIR part way through a season adds the full cap hit to the LTIR?

I'm sorry, but I think I'd actually have to take about an hour and just sit there and scribble down random numbers to figure all of this out.

Much easier to say that I think kittens are cute.
- jmatchett383

Nah, I think you're 99% there.

It just requires a bit of leap between what we know to be true in season terms and how it's accounted for on a daily basis. Just divide everything by 186 (or however many days there are in the upcoming season) and pro-rate.

Nah, I think you're 99% there.

It just requires a bit of leap between what we know to be true in season terms and how it's accounted for on a daily basis. Just divide everything by 186 (or however many days there are in the upcoming season) and pro-rate.
- Tomahawk

And step into...

But if it's half way through the season, don't they only get the pro-rated portion? Or is the answer to my question exactly what you just posted, that the cap hit for a player acquired half way through is 1/2 his cap hit, but a player on LTIR part way through a season adds the full cap hit to the LTIR?
- jmatchett383

Say the player's salary is $5M and the team is currently able to get the full benefit by having $0 of cap-space at the moment.

Let's assume a 186 day season.

The players daily cap hit is then $5M/186, or $26,882. That's the amount you can go over the cap by on a daily basis while the player is on LTIR. You can extend that until the end of the season, or you can always have the option of taking that player off of LTIR and relinquishing that exemption for whatever reason. As long as you don't exceed your daily salary cap allowance, you're good.

Yup. Say the player's salary is $5M and the team is currently able to get the full benefit by having $0 of cap-space at the moment.

Let's assume a 186 day season.

The players daily cap hit is then $5M/186, or $26,882. That's the amount you can go over the cap by on a daily basis while the player is on LTIR. You can extend that until the end of the season, or you can always have the option of taking that player off of LTIR and relinquishing that exemption for whatever reason. As long as you don't exceed your daily salary cap allowance, you're good.
- Tomahawk

Ah, gotcha. But from what MJL seemed to be saying, it doesn't matter when a player goes on LTIR, his daily LTIR allowance is his full hit/186. But I guess, for most players, doing so doesn't matter unless you're up against the cap mid-season.

Neither, I believe.
- jmatchett383

Say the player's salary is $5M and the team is currently able to get the full benefit by having $0 of cap-space at the moment.

Let's assume a 186 day season.

The players daily cap hit is then $5M/186, or $26,882. That's the amount you can go over the cap by on a daily basis while the player is on LTIR. You can extend that until the end of the season, or you can always have the option of taking that player off of LTIR and relinquishing that exemption for whatever reason. As long as you don't exceed your daily salary cap allowance, you're good.
- Tomahawk

I, actually, think I understand.

This stuff makes you appreciate the capologists so much more.

All this LTIR discussion wouldn't be needed if the League would just let players who are Physically unfit to play and have sustained a career ending injury retire. Instead we punish teams for something they can't possibly foresee.

Ah, gotcha. But from what MJL seemed to be saying, it doesn't matter when a player goes on LTIR, his daily LTIR allowance is his full hit/186. But I guess, for most players, doing so doesn't matter unless you're up against the cap mid-season.
- jmatchett383

Yeah, the actual LTIR exemption amount stays constant, and is heavily dependent on what the conditions were on the day you took it. That's why it's important, if they want to take Pronger's right away, to max what they can get out of it completely.

I hate the cap!!!!!

Discussions of it make me almost want to stop watching hockey. I know that what you guys are talking about is relevant I just want nothing to do with it.

The cap wasn't necessary when teams were in places where they thrived and made money and if they didn't, they moved. That's the way it's supposed to be.

All this LTIR discussion wouldn't be needed if the League would just let players who are Physically unfit to play and have sustained a career ending injury retire. Instead we punish teams for something they can't possibly foresee.
- Hype97

The rule was put into place because teams took advantage of it. They signed players to deals until they are 44 to lower the cap hit. Whats to stop a player at age 38 from retiring due to "chronic injuries"

totally unrelated to hockey, but does anywhere here live in the northeast, and if so, do you guy have a hell of a time getting your central air to extend to the top floor?

All this LTIR discussion wouldn't be needed if the League would just let players who are Physically unfit to play and have sustained a career ending injury retire. Instead we punish teams for something they can't possibly foresee.
- Hype97

They can retire right now if they want. Teams just don't want them to if they're 35+, and players don't because they'd rather get paid in full, and the league doesn't want the teams to be able to pay retired players off the cap because it would essentially amount to an increase in player share. It's a weighty compromise between all parties, not really a punishment per se.

I hate the cap!!!!!

Discussions of it make me almost want to stop watching hockey. I know that what you guys are talking about is relevant I just want nothing to do with it.

The cap wasn't necessary when teams were in places where they thrived and made money and if they didn't, they moved. That's the way it's supposed to be.
- mayorofangrytown

it's pretty brutal that the average fan feels like they need to know this stuff



edit

65 days until camp

Ah, gotcha. But from what MJL seemed to be saying, it doesn't matter when a player goes on LTIR, his daily LTIR allowance is his full hit/186. But I guess, for most players, doing so doesn't matter unless you're up against the cap mid-season.
- jmatchett383

Yep, which is the exact thing that Tomahawk is saying.

Make it very simple. The NHL Season is 100 days. A team has zero Cap space and places a player with $100 cap hit on LTIR. They have one dollar of daily LTIR cap space to use. Regardless of what point of the Season the player is placed on LTIR. It's the same. But remember, LTIR cap space is use it or lose it.

The rule was put into place because teams took advantage of it. They signed players to deals until they are 44 to lower the cap hit. Whats to stop a player at age 38 from retiring due to "chronic injuries"
- PhillySportsGuy

How did it work for the Devils and Kovalchuk. He didn't even pretend he was retiring due to injury. Hell, he didn't even retire, he just broke his contract and walked.

The rule was put into place because teams took advantage of it. They signed players to deals until they are 44 to lower the cap hit. Whats to stop a player at age 38 from retiring due to "chronic injuries"
- PhillySportsGuy

Common sense/logical examination of the rules.

The rule was put into place because teams took advantage of it. They signed players to deals until they are 44 to lower the cap hit. Whats to stop a player at age 38 from retiring due to "chronic injuries"
- PhillySportsGuy

I understand that, but a stick to the eye causing a concussion is different to me that "chronic back pain". Difficult to manage the differences for sure but I don't see any reasons why the league couldn't have their own doctors decide if a player is done bc of an on ice accident as compared to (you signed an old guy who got old and cant play)

it's pretty brutal that the average fan feels like they need to know this stuff



edit

65 days until camp
- Don'tForgetTocchet

Yeah, it blows.


Edit: 65 days is too long. I'm glad the kid is back at the rink now.