Yep, which is the exact thing that Tomahawk is saying.

Make it very simple. The NHL Season is 100 days. A team has zero Cap space and places a player with $100 cap hit on LTIR. They have one dollar of daily LTIR cap space to use. Regardless of what point of the Season the player is placed on LTIR. It's the same. But remember, LTIR cap space is use it or lose it.
- MJL

Thanks, that's about as simple as it can get.
So, unless you need cap space mid-season, there's very little reason to ever LTIR someone mid season (unless they are gone for the year and you are close to the cap ceiling).

All this LTIR discussion wouldn't be needed if the League would just let players who are Physically unfit to play and have sustained a career ending injury retire. Instead we punish teams for something they can't possibly foresee.
- Hype97

The League doesn't stop any player from retiring. Chris Pronger can retire any time he wants to. And honestly, if you understand everything that the Cap is about. How it works is completely understandable and makes sense.

Yep, which is the exact thing that Tomahawk is saying.

Make it very simple. The NHL Season is 100 days. A team has zero Cap space and places a player with $100 cap hit on LTIR. They have one dollar of daily LTIR cap space to use. Regardless of what point of the Season the player is placed on LTIR. It's the same. But remember, LTIR cap space is use it or lose it.
- MJL

It only really gets complicated when you starting acquiring players mid-season, have to pro-rate their salaries, and then try to figure out how much banked cap space you have. Luckily CapGeek provides a daily running tally of this in-season.

For a team in LTIR, the math is much more simple.

They can retire right now if they want. Teams just don't want them to if they're 35+, and players don't because they'd rather get paid in full, and the league doesn't want the teams to be able to pay retired players off the cap because it would essentially amount to an increase in player share. It's a weighty compromise between all parties, not really a punishment per se.
- Tomahawk

I'm aware the player can choose to retire whenever they want. LTIR isn't a punishment during season but the fact that it ham strings you in the off season makes it a punishment.

I hate the cap!!!!!

Discussions of it make me almost want to stop watching hockey. I know that what you guys are talking about is relevant I just want nothing to do with it.

The cap wasn't necessary when teams were in places where they thrived and made money and if they didn't, they moved. That's the way it's supposed to be.
- mayorofangrytown

It does add an annoying courtroom/accounting element where I'd rather be talking hockey, for sure. But it's not going away, and the lockouts will remain regularly scheduled until... well, what's the weather forecast looking like in Hell?

I understand that, but a stick to the eye causing a concussion is different to me that "chronic back pain". Difficult to manage the differences for sure but I don't see any reasons why the league couldn't have their own doctors decide if a player is done bc of an on ice accident as compared to (you signed an old guy who got old and cant play)
- Hype97

Doctors can't see everything. That's why head, neck and back injuries are the most commonly used injuries in lawsuits.

Thanks, that's about as simple as it can get.
So, unless you need cap space mid-season, there's very little reason to ever LTIR someone mid season (unless they are gone for the year and you are close to the cap ceiling).
- jmatchett383

I'd venture to bet that there were long stretches where Pronger was actually not on LTIR... just on plain IR for accounting purposes.

Thanks, that's about as simple as it can get.
So, unless you need cap space mid-season, there's very little reason to ever LTIR someone mid season (unless they are gone for the year and you are close to the cap ceiling).
- jmatchett383

If a team has 10M of Cap space available, and a player with a 5M cap hit gets injured. Placing that player on LTIR does nothing for them at that point. Other then the roster exemption. Which you can get by just placing the player on regular IR.

Remember. LTIR is an exemption to go over the Upper Limit IF, replacing that player causes the team to go over the Upper Limit.

The League doesn't stop any player from retiring. Chris Pronger can retire any time he wants to. And honestly, if you understand everything that the Cap is about. How it works is completely understandable and makes sense.
- MJL

I get how it works, I know he can retire whenever if he wants. My view is just that when it comes to an on ice accident that isn't the player can't play bc he got old and broke down than at the very least the team shouldn't be forced to operate with his cap hit in the off season.

I'd venture to bet that there were long stretches where Pronger was actually not on LTIR... just on plain IR for accounting purposes.
- Tomahawk

That's true. Pronger only spent 64 days out of the 99 day NHL Season on LTIR last Season.

I get how it works, I know he can retire whenever if he wants. My view is just that when it comes to an on ice accident that isn't the player can't play bc he got old and broke down than at the very least the team shouldn't be forced to operate with his cap hit in the off season.
- Hype97

That's why there is a 10% off season exemption to cover that.

I'm aware the player can choose to retire whenever they want. LTIR isn't a punishment during season but the fact that it ham strings you in the off season makes it a punishment.
- Hype97

Owners, players and GM's all have a reason for liking LTIR as well as hating it.

To use doctors to medically force players to retire would violate the guaranteed nature of their contracts.

To make it all 'go off the books' would enrage the owners, who don't want a penny of player compensation to go unaccounted for in the revenue split.

And GM's obviously wouldn't like it if they couldn't somehow replace an injured player, even if it means having to jump through a few hoops and/or get creative with the accounting.

Doctors can't see everything. That's why head, neck and back injuries are the most commonly used injuries in lawsuits.
- PhillySportsGuy

Can they see a video review of a stick blade to the Eye? Also I believe concussion damage can be viewed on brain scans.

I get what you're saying, there can be BS ways to use it but I don't think there can be such a clear cut line as once you're 35 you can't leave for any reason or you're team is screwed.

I get how it works, I know he can retire whenever if he wants. My view is just that when it comes to an on ice accident that isn't the player can't play bc he got old and broke down than at the very least the team shouldn't be forced to operate with his cap hit in the off season.
- Hype97

It's difficult to differentiate between the two sometimes.

It only really gets complicated when you starting acquiring players mid-season, have to pro-rate their salaries, and then try to figure out how much banked cap space you have. Luckily CapGeek provides a daily running tally of this in-season.

For a team in LTIR, the math is much more simple.
- Tomahawk

Well honestly that's not really that complicated either. All you need to know is the players Cap hit. How many days are in the NHL Season, and how many days left there are in the Season. And then you just need a calculator. If you spend time looking at the numbers on Cap geek. It all comes together.

Can they see a video review of a stick blade to the Eye? Also I believe concussion damage can be viewed on brain scans.

I get what you're saying, there can be BS ways to use it but I don't think there can be such a clear cut line as once you're 35 you can't leave for any reason or you're team is screwed.
- Hype97

Well then how would you prevent teams from signing 35+ players to long term deals to circumvent the cap?

The League doesn't stop any player from retiring. Chris Pronger can retire any time he wants to. And honestly, if you understand everything that the Cap is about. How it works is completely understandable and makes sense.
- MJL

I agree to a point. But there has to be some common sense applied. Chris Pronger having to stop playing because he takes a stick in the eye while he was still a productive player, is apples and oranges when compared to some 39 year old player who retires because of chronic knee trouble that has been developing over years and years.

There should be a mechanism in place to give the teams some relief from the apples. Right now it is a farce. It cant be that difficult to determine which is which.

It does add an annoying courtroom/accounting element where I'd rather be talking hockey, for sure. But it's not going away, and the lockouts will remain regularly scheduled until... well, what's the weather forecast looking like in Hell?
- BulliesPhan87

Let's just say they have really bad ice and leave it at that. It's like Florida and Phoenix.

I agree to a point. But there has to be some common sense applied. Chris Pronger having to stop playing because he takes a stick in the eye while he was still a productive player, is apples and oranges when compared to some 39 year old player who retires because of chronic knee trouble that has been developing over years and years.

There should be a mechanism in place to give the teams some relief from the apples. Right now it is a farce. It cant be that difficult to determine which is which.
- MBFlyerfan

Right now it is. It's the same thing with delay of game penalties. Right now it's easy to say that just about every delay of game was not on purpose. However, if they removed the automatic penalty, how could you determine intent?

The rule was put into place because teams took advantage of it. They signed players to deals until they are 44 to lower the cap hit. Whats to stop a player at age 38 from retiring due to "chronic injuries"
- PhillySportsGuy

This part's easy enough to fix, if the league actually wanted to. For a player to retire under these circumstances without cap penalties to their team, require league-employed doctors, unaffiliated with any team, to evaluate their condition. If those impartial doctors say that the player will never be able to play again, permit the retirement and offer full cap relief for that player rather than continuing this charade. If they say there is a chance of recovery, the team must continue to carry the player or accept the retirement cap penalty.

This doesn't address other aspects of the problem, but if you want to stop farcical retirements from gaming the system, simply give the league full control over the determination of whether the player can recover or not.

Right now it is. It's the same thing with delay of game penalties. Right now it's easy to say that just about every delay of game was not on purpose. However, if they removed the automatic penalty, how could you determine intent?
- PhillySportsGuy

I've heard Bauer has been investing in some interesting advances in helmet technology...

Right now it is. It's the same thing with delay of game penalties. Right now it's easy to say that just about every delay of game was not on purpose. However, if they removed the automatic penalty, how could you determine intent?
- PhillySportsGuy

Its like the definition of porn

I know what it is when I see it.

This part's easy enough to fix, if the league actually wanted to. For a player to retire under these circumstances without cap penalties to their team, require league-employed doctors, unaffiliated with any team, to evaluate their condition. If those impartial doctors say that the player will never be able to play again, permit the retirement and offer full cap relief for that player rather than continuing this charade. If they say there is a chance of recovery, the team must continue to carry the player or accept the retirement cap penalty.

This doesn't address other aspects of the problem, but if you want to stop farcical retirements from gaming the system, simply give the league full control over the determination of whether the player can recover or not.
- dilbert719

Doctors cannot read MRIs and brain scans and determine whether or not a player is fit enough to play in every instance.

I've had concussions and the brain scan revealed nothing. However, I had headaches for a month

I've heard Bauer has been investing in some interesting advances in helmet technology...


- Tomahawk

Looks like Jake V on the Leclair diet.

totally unrelated to hockey, but does anywhere here live in the northeast, and if so, do you guy have a hell of a time getting your central air to extend to the top floor?
- stayinthefnnet

Yes.

I own fans for this very reason.