Bickell, in numerous very important ways, but we will agree to disagree
- John Jaeckel

Bickell was HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE for us...settin' the tone with the G1 o/t winner vs Minny, several other huge goals and he got in Chara's head. VERY PROUD AND HAPPY FOR BICKS !!!! Patience by the ORG and him PAID OFF.

I'm gonna try to give my viewpoint on Crawford and goalies. First off, I'm not a Crawford fanboy.

1. Is Crawford elite?

Probably not. Although his stats say he kind of is. Regular season stats were up there, same as playoff stats.

2. I think part of classifying Crawford is his past. It still kind of haunts us, can't help thinking of the Phoenix series. But that was 2 seasons ago. This season he has shown great strides in his play. The defence was pretty much the same these few past seasons. Can't help to say that Crawford actually got and did better himself.


3. Quick, Rinne, Lunqvist, Crawford. Which 3 would you choose? Yeah I know. Pretty easy eh?

Although, stats are very similar among this group, and all respective teams are really good at "D".



4. I understand Hawks defence is awesome. But Quick and Rask played with arguably "almost" or "as" good defences didn't they?


5. I do agree with the Bowman's approach of building the "d" so you don't overpay the goalie.

One thing about how much Crawford gets paid in a couple years: there is a debate about this. More than $4 mill then goodbye. Less than maybe you can stay.

The deal with this is this: The cap went up then down then most likely back up. The price for players will also go up whether it is a goalie or forward. Kind of like inflation. A chocolate bar in the 80's was like 50 cents. Nowadays, probably $2. Even though Crawford is worth about 3 mill now. If the cap were to go up to 75 or 80 mill, the average goalie price also goes up. Players can be paid more because of this inflatory prices. He isn't worth 4-5 mill with a cap of $64 mill. But is he worth 4-5 mill with a a cap around 75 mill? Maybe so.


6. I think this year for Crawford is important. If he continues upward like he has, then we should be talking about Top Ten Goalie status for #50. If he goes back to his Phoenix series, well then we know.

7. All prices being equal. Do I draft Lunq, Rinne, Quick before Crawford. Damn right.

But, if I put a $1 mill goalie in, regardless of the Hawks defence, we don't win the cup
This year. He made big saves, played very well, and kept the Hawks in the games when they didn't play well and considering how many games went to OT and were one goal games.


That's it for now.
- robhawks

Not much needs to be added - well said. To expound on #3 and #4 a bit - why is it that most believe those other teams are good defensive teams because of their goalie, and the Hawks are a good team despite their goalie?

Not much needs to be added - well said. To expound on #3 and #4 a bit - why is it that most believe those other teams are good defensive teams because of their goalie, and the Hawks are a good team despite their goalie?
- mohel

True. Thanks. Don't get me wrong, Quick is a better goalie than Crawford no doubt. But those teams "d" are pretty darn good. We aren't talking about the Oilers "d".

Not much needs to be added - well said. To expound on #3 and #4 a bit - why is it that most believe those other teams are good defensive teams because of their goalie, and the Hawks are a good team despite their goalie?
- mohel

Hawks have a good defense NOT because of, NOT in spite of, but INCLUDING Crawford.

Seven men on the ice every night who work together, do their jobs, do what they have to do, to minimize opponents chances and goals.

ESPECIALLY at critical times in games.

Crawford an integral part of that.

Has anyone heard details of Beach, LeBlanc, Peckham and Kotska contracts?

Hawks have a good defense NOT because of, NOT in spite of, but INCLUDING Crawford.

Seven men on the ice every night who work together, do their jobs, do what they have to do, to minimize opponents chances and goals.

ESPECIALLY at critical times in games.

Crawford an integral part of that.
- StLBravesFan

Six guys right? Lol.

Not much needs to be added - well said. To expound on #3 and #4 a bit - why is it that most believe those other teams are good defensive teams because of their goalie, and the Hawks are a good team despite their goalie?
- mohel

Good God, look at the shot totals. Crawford almost always saw like 20-30% less, not to mention the quality of the chances. It's not a razor's edge comparison of the defenses. The Hawks D was/is clearly better than everyone else's.

If you're a Hawk fan, why argue for them to overpay at a position they don't need to overpay at. Because other teams do? That makes it right?

It just defies logic.

Crawford is not an elite goalie—to anyone but an apparently excitable segment of the Hawk fan base. Go ask knowledgeable fans of 29 other teams, and most pro scouts.

He's more than adequate on this team, that much is proven.

But he in NO WAY has any great leverage on the Hawks nor should he. Unless he either seriously steps it up next year or the Hawks can't find equal or better (which I kind of doubt). THAT, and not what other teams have chosen to pay their goalies in the recent past is really his market value.

Get over it. Move on.

The Kostko signing may signal that Bowman would not consider Lalonde for defense but would like to see him try playing a forward. Should Lalonde ever get an NHL look at forward, he might also be an option on pp as a dman. It is a long season, who knows....long shot....but Lalonde would be a fast skill forward with a bit of an edge.

I believe if deserved you give him a one game or so look, just like you do to prospects who are making progress who you know are in your long term plans.

What was that all about with Lalonde taking face offs in a game last season. The secret face off weapon LOL

Six guys right? Lol.
- robhawks

I meant the 6 defensemen dressed every game plus Crawford - but yes, should include the forwards, too.

For a certain strategic match or too give the pp another look, Leblanc could see games as an offensive # 4 line center and on the pp

Good God, look at the shot totals. Crawford almost always saw like 20-30% less, not to mention the quality of the chances. It's not a razor's edge comparison of the defenses. The Hawks D was/is clearly better than everyone else's.

If you're a Hawk fan, why argue for them to overpay at a position they don't need to overpay at. Because other teams do? That makes it right?

It just defies logic.
- John Jaeckel

Not arguing to overpay - Hawks shouldn't go over $4MM for him - or any goalie - you might think less, ok....

Just arguing that Crawford did his job and did it well - defense was great, Crawford was part of that - not that he's a great or elite goalie.

However many shots he faced - or didn't face - he made the saves he had to make.

Crawford is from Montreal.
- 6628

Like I said, "great goalies."

Good God, look at the shot totals. Crawford almost always saw like 20-30% less, not to mention the quality of the chances. It's not a razor's edge comparison of the defenses. The Hawks D was/is clearly better than everyone else's.

If you're a Hawk fan, why argue for them to overpay at a position they don't need to overpay at. Because other teams do? That makes it right?

It just defies logic.

Crawford is not an elite goalie—to anyone but an apparently excitable segment of the Hawk fan base. Go ask knowledgeable fans of 29 other teams, and most pro scouts.

He's more than adequate on this team, that much is proven.

But he in NO WAY has any great leverage on the Hawks nor should he. Unless he either seriously steps it up next year or the Hawks can't find equal or better (which I kind of doubt). THAT, and not what other teams have chosen to pay their goalies in the recent past is really his market value.

Get over it. Move on.
- John Jaeckel

Not sure if you actually read this board, but I'd like for you to find a post in which someone says Crawford is elite. How about you ask his teammates if he's a good goalie (note - I did not write the word "elite")? Good goalies get paid more than 10 bucks a game. I think Crawford is an above average NHL goalie, and so do many posters here. You will need to get over that and move on.

Six guys right? Lol.
- robhawks

No wonder our defense is so good! I think he meant the 6 d-men and the goalie, though.

I meant the 6 defensemen dressed every game plus Crawford - but yes, should include the forwards, too.
- StLBravesFan

Gotcha ya. Oops.

Good God, look at the shot totals. Crawford almost always saw like 20-30% less, not to mention the quality of the chances. It's not a razor's edge comparison of the defenses. The Hawks D was/is clearly better than everyone else's.

If you're a Hawk fan, why argue for them to overpay at a position they don't need to overpay at. Because other teams do? That makes it right?

It just defies logic.

Crawford is not an elite goalie—to anyone but an apparently excitable segment of the Hawk fan base. Go ask knowledgeable fans of 29 other teams, and most pro scouts.

He's more than adequate on this team, that much is proven.

But he in NO WAY has any great leverage on the Hawks nor should he. Unless he either seriously steps it up next year or the Hawks can't find equal or better (which I kind of doubt). THAT, and not what other teams have chosen to pay their goalies in the recent past is really his market value.

Get over it. Move on.
- John Jaeckel

Some of the things I was trying to say. But no one said to overpay Crawford. JJ if you read my post on the other page, it was more about average salaries compared to total caps. Eg. 64 versus 75 mill caps. Crawford at $4 mill in a 64 mill cap is overpayment. Not so much in a $75 mill cap because other goalies will also be paid slightly higher.

One minor alteration - Inexpensive but good goaltending.....
- mohel

Indeed...I did leave out that detail. Noted...

The Kostko signing may signal that Bowman would not consider Lalonde for defense but would like to see him try playing a forward. Should Lalonde ever get an NHL look at forward, he might also be an option on pp as a dman. It is a long season, who knows....long shot....but Lalonde would be a fast skill forward with a bit of an edge.

I believe if deserved you give him a one game or so look, just like you do to prospects who are making progress who you know are in your long term plans.

What was that all about with Lalonde taking face offs in a game last season. The secret face off weapon LOL
- jhawk59

No.

The signings of Kostka and Peckham do not signal a move to forward for Lalonde. The Icehogs carried 8 defensemen for most of last season. All of those two signings signal is that the Hawks have defensive depth, and there are currently 8 defensmen that will start in camp once the AHL pre-season gets rolling. As to all (or which) 8 guys sticking in Rockford, that is still very much up in the air.

Also, this Lalonde as a "long shot" for 4th line forward business, give it a rest. It still remains to be seen if the organization even wants to move him there. One game in the NHL as a forward during the last game of the season and all the sudden he's going to get moved off the blue line? Don't start talking about it until he's actually moved to forward full time, in Rockford.

Like I said, "great goalies."
- faustus1500

Perhaps Allaire isn't all he 's cracked up to be.

Bickell, in numerous very important ways, but we will agree to disagree
- John Jaeckel

Not close in my view because...Bickell like Kane, Sharp, Toews, Keith, Hammer, Rosz and others were all vg, but Crawford was the only one I can think of who didn't have two games in a row where he wasn't a difference maker.

Crawford should have won the Conn Smythe this year hands down. He bailed out the d a whole lot more often then they did him. Oduya, Hjarmalsson, Roszival and even Seabrook all had games or times in games when they were running around with chickens with their heads cut off.
- mcmasterkev

Not sure if Crow was a clear cut Conn Smythe winner, but he was close.

The Hawk D as good as it is is not predicated on a shut down style. The system is predicated on their best defense is to play in the other team's zone, 175 feet from their goalie. When that doesn't happen their Dmen are middle of the pack in their own zone, aside from getting quick precise outs and being a trigger for the offense.

It's those times you better have a goalie that can make big saves, and Crawford has proven he will on the biggest hockey stage in the world.

I agree with you, the Hawks don't win the cup without Crawford playing as well as he did last year. He went toe to toe with Howard, Quick and then a guy who just signed for 7 mil per and equaled him statistically and was the last man standing.

Not sure if Crow was a clear cut Conn Smythe winner, but he was close.

The Hawk D as good as it is is not predicated on a shut down style. The system is predicated on their best defense is to play in the other team's zone, 175 feet from their goalie. When that doesn't happen their Dmen are middle of the pack in their own zone, aside from getting quick precise outs and being a trigger for the offense.

It's those times you better have a goalie that can make big saves, and Crawford has proven he will on the biggest hockey stage in the world.

I agree with you, the Hawks don't win the cup without Crawford playing as well as he did last year. He went toe to toe with Howard, Quick and then a guy who just signed for 7 mil per and equaled him statistically and was the last man standing.
- Mr Ricochet

Conn Smythe like other hockey awards is my casted...

The Finals especially the last games are overly weighted and it is easy for some to look at a stat sheet and see who scored the most points.

I'm gonna try to give my viewpoint on Crawford and goalies. First off, I'm not a Crawford fanboy.

1. Is Crawford elite?

Probably not. Although his stats say he kind of is. Regular season stats were up there, same as playoff stats.

2. I think part of classifying Crawford is his past. It still kind of haunts us, can't help thinking of the Phoenix series. But that was 2 seasons ago. This season he has shown great strides in his play. The defence was pretty much the same these few past seasons. Can't help to say that Crawford actually got and did better himself.


3. Quick, Rinne, Lunqvist, Crawford. Which 3 would you choose? Yeah I know. Pretty easy eh?

Although, stats are very similar among this group, and all respective teams are really good at "D".



4. I understand Hawks defence is awesome. But Quick and Rask played with arguably "almost" or "as" good defences didn't they?


5. I do agree with the Bowman's approach of building the "d" so you don't overpay the goalie.

One thing about how much Crawford gets paid in a couple years: there is a debate about this. More than $4 mill then goodbye. Less than maybe you can stay.

The deal with this is this: The cap went up then down then most likely back up. The price for players will also go up whether it is a goalie or forward. Kind of like inflation. A chocolate bar in the 80's was like 50 cents. Nowadays, probably $2. Even though Crawford is worth about 3 mill now. If the cap were to go up to 75 or 80 mill, the average goalie price also goes up. Players can be paid more because of this inflatory prices. He isn't worth 4-5 mill with a cap of $64 mill. But is he worth 4-5 mill with a a cap around 75 mill? Maybe so.


6. I think this year for Crawford is important. If he continues upward like he has, then we should be talking about Top Ten Goalie status for #50. If he goes back to his Phoenix series, well then we know.

7. All prices being equal. Do I draft Lunq, Rinne, Quick before Crawford. Damn right.

But, if I put a $1 mill goalie in, regardless of the Hawks defence, we don't win the cup
This year. He made big saves, played very well, and kept the Hawks in the games when they didn't play well and considering how many games went to OT and were one goal games.


That's it for now.
- robhawks

Very easy indeed. For this team I take Craw at $2.66 over any of them at
$5.85+.

Conn Smythe like other hockey awards is my casted...

The Finals especially the last games are overly weighted and it is easy for some to look at a stat sheet and see who scored the most points.
- Al

Call me different, but I don't care if they gave the award to Leddy or Kruger. Now if the award were voted on by the players I would have some respect for it.

But as I mentioned earlier I wouldn't say Crawford was a lock for the Conn Smythe, but real close. Simply said, again, the Hawks don't win the cup without the seemingly pedestrian Crawford.

Always good to read your thoughts, Al.

I admit I was one of those who didn't think crawford could win the Cup mainly based on those 2 incredibly soft OT goals he gave up to Phoenix. It was very hard to look past it. Well he has won me over. He didn't have too many bad games in regular season and to me he did deserve the Conn smythe in the playoffs