sop
- aightwebang17

sop it !

There is none. More often than not the primary assist is the better display of playmaking ability.... If you're going to go through the trouble of anlyzing the data this deeply the best way to do it would still count assists in general. Don't separate the primary vs secondary. Just weigh them differently. Each primary = 1 playmaking point while each secondary = 0.6 playmaking points or something like this. I'm far too lazy to go through with this though
- JFlyers00

I think over long periods of time, things even out. There will be times when players get assists for doing very little, but by the end of their careers, the best playmakers will have the most assists.

Went to the sports night at the JCC in margate last night. Got a chance to talk with Danny Briere. He's a really nice guy.

I think over long periods of time, things even out. There will be times when players get assists for doing very little, but by the end of their careers, the best playmakers will have the most assists.
- PhillySportsGuy

i hope this turns into a matt carle argument

When Forsberg was in his prime, and healthy, there wasn't a more fun player to watch in my opinion.

I wish we could've seen more from him before his injuries consumed him.

When Forsberg was in his prime, and healthy, there wasn't a more fun player to watch in my opinion.

I wish we could've seen more from him before his injuries consumed him.
- gofivehole16

I know. You could say the same about Lindros too.

i hope this turns into a matt carle argument
- Don'tForgetTocchet

Just hang on and it will eventually.

Are we still having the assist argument from the first page? If so, my 2 cents:

I would say primary assists are generally a better indicator of playmaking ability. However, some primary assists come when a player shoots nad another player knocks home a rebound. The real "playmaking" assist may have been the secondary assist. There are also times when a player makes a crazy pass but his team makes a few average passes afterward rendering the playmaking pass "assistless". Because of all this, I think it gets close to evening out where a primary assists and secondary assists aren't day and night.

If you're going to seperate them, you could do what baseball does with their advanced metrics (i.e. taking out brillant defensive plays to evaluate a pitcher). Make a "playmaker's assist" advanced stat or something. I'm sure that this idea isn't too far down the road either.

sop it !
- Don'tForgetTocchet

what an s.o.p player that keeps touching pucks (ponger)

i hope this turns into a matt carle argument
- Don'tForgetTocchet

It's going to be hilarious when Homer trades for him immediately following Kimmo's retirement... thousands of people are going to have one big collective stroke.

In my opinion I would do a list based on playmaking ability, that doesn't take numbers into account. In that I think Giroux would be 3rd or 4th on the list.

1. Lindros
2. Forsberg
3. Giroux
4. Clarke
and the rest...

I think Giroux has been hampered because he hasn't had a true sniper on his line yet. Hartnell is decent at getting the garbage goals, and Voracek is more playmaker himself. Jagr during his time here was more interested in being a playmaker as well. Just saying Giroux's skills at playmaking would translate better into points if he 1, didn't have to be a goal scorer, 2, Had players like LeClair, Leetch, Barber, Etc...
- youarewrong

Clarke at 4 huh?


And Brian Leetch played for the Rangers sir.

Are we still having the assist argument from the first page? If so, my 2 cents:

I would say primary assists are generally a better indicator of playmaking ability. However, some primary assists come when a player shoots nad another player knocks home a rebound. The real "playmaking" assist may have been the secondary assist. There are also times when a player makes a crazy pass but his team makes a few average passes afterward rendering the playmaking pass "assistless". Because of all this, I think it gets close to evening out where a primary assists and secondary assists aren't day and night.

If you're going to seperate them, you could do what baseball does with their advanced metrics (i.e. taking out brillant defensive plays to evaluate a pitcher). Make a "playmaker's assist" advanced stat or something. I'm sure that this idea isn't too far down the road either.
- NickTheKid87

You can just do what Bill did and analyze everything based on the eye test. Just watching the guys play, you can usually tell who is the best playmaker on the ice.

They aren't arbitrarily assigned. And if it gives out the false idea that no more then three players can create a successful offensive play, that is on the those who incorrectly come to that conclusion. Due to their ignorance, or lack of understanding of the game. And not on the stat. Same concpet as with the problem with +/-.
- MJL

Assists are given out to the last two players to touch the puck before it goes in the net. Whether they added any value to the scoring chance or not.

It's an archaic way of tabulating points that should be upgraded just as the level of play has increased since the stats inception, as well as how the game has evolved into more of a 5-man unit than previously.

Assist totals nowadays do not split up the offensive contributions evenly anymore, and to think otherwise is ignorant imo.

Regardless of real time stats and advance statistics and all of that, I'd rather watch the damn player than look an a excel spread sheet.

In my opinion I would do a list based on playmaking ability, that doesn't take numbers into account. In that I think Giroux would be 3rd or 4th on the list.

1. Lindros
2. Forsberg
3. Giroux
4. Clarke
and the rest...


- youarewrong

Maggie, Santa's Little Helper, Snowball II, and the TV set?

Assists are given out to the last two players to touch the puck before it goes in the net. Whether they added any value to the scoring chance or not.

It's an archaic way of tabulating points that should be upgraded just as the level of play has increased since the stats inception, as well as how the game has evolved into more of a 5-man unit than previously.

Assist totals nowadays do not split up the offensive contributions evenly anymore, and to think otherwise is ignorant imo.
- bradleyc4

On certain plays, you're right. However, if stats are measured over the course of a career or even a season, the best playmakers are near the top of the league in assists.

Maggie, Santa's Little Helper, Snowball II, and the TV set?
- jmatchett383

I thought "and the rest" were always Mary Ann and the Professor.

The stats are listed, but you won't find anybody referencing their importance in player evaluations.

Advanced stats = Corsi/Fenwick/Zone-starts.
- Tomahawk

Sure you will. Go to page 1 of this thread. Assists were never broken down into primary and secondary or /60, before the advanced stats websites came along. It is is definitely part of the advanced stats genre.

On certain plays, you're right. However, if stats are measured over the course of a career or even a season, the best playmakers are near the top of the league in assists.
- PhillySportsGuy

Your logic and reasoning has no place in this Carle-esque debate.

Thanks for the catch on Giroux's stat line -- was looking at wrong line. I fixed it.

Regarding primary vs. secondary assists, there are plenty of goals scored where the main playmaker in a goal sequence IS the guy who gets the secondary assist (or even someone who gets no assist at all because two other guys happened to touch the puck in between him and the goal being scored).

Example 1: Giroux draws two D-men to him and passes to an open Timonen at the point. The goalie makes the initial save but Hartnell immediately jams in the rebound. Giroux clearly was the one who was primary playmaker but he gets the secondary assist.

Example 2: Same initial sequence as above but now lets say the goalie makes a second save but Voracek forces the puck over the line as it sits in the crease. Now Giroux gets no assist.

Moving the puck effectively is of minimal value, Bruno Gervais is just as good at is as Kimmo Timonen or Chris Pronger. Those assists are trivial.

The only REAL assists are when a player feeds another player for a one-timer or a tap-in. That's where the real money is.

Having secondary assists = primary assists in judging a player's "playmaking" ability is foolish imo.

But the NHL says they're equal, so let's just follow protocol and we'll all be wiser.
- bradleyc4

I think it all depends on the actual situation but yea, good point, no pun intended.

yesss
- Don'tForgetTocchet

Sure you will. Go to page 1 of this thread. Assists were never broken down into primary and secondary or /60, before the advanced stats websites came along. It is is definitely part of the advanced stats genre.
- MJL

A1 and A2 are just subsets of a traditional stat. They were available prior to the advanced stat movement, if people cared to keep track.

If everything that's listed on behindthenet is by definition an advanced stat, are games-played, position and player numbers therefore advanced as well? Of course not.