I agree. No more playing the Lightning/Panthers/Canes/Jets all the time. Tougher opponents, and a more physical style of hockey.

I see the Flyers as a fringe 4/5 spot. I like the team, but I think the goaltending is a huge question mark. If it holds up, and the team does as well, they could challenge NYR for the # spot. If not, they're probably behind Pitt/NYR, and fighting with Columbus, NYI, and Washington for the #3-#5 spots.
- jmatchett383[/img]

I don't think the goaltending will hold them back or win them many games. It should be solid enough if the play in front of them is good.

Mason will probably have his up and down moments and Emery will struggle if the team asks him to go post to post.

I can see the goaltending being equal or a little better than last year, but the puck handling will really improve the overall defense.

No the point is that it's really no big deal. I don't rememebr the exact circumstances behind it. They'd want to choose to trade Meszaros to have more cap flexibility, such as at the deadline, and to create more playing time for player such as Gustafsson.
I don't thnk there have been any bad mistakes made with the Cap. Certainly you can look player moves and trades made that are mistakes in the past.
- MJL

just because you say it's not a big deal doesn't make it so. i think it's absolutely ridiculous that the flyers were in that kind of position, literally having to sign a guy off the street to fill our their roster on the last day of the year in a pivotal game. it made a difference. and who's to say if they get the higher seed because they win that game, they that don't go on to win the cup that year. we'll never know.

i don't want them trading meszaros, who's arguable they're most offensive dman, which every team needs, for cap flexibility.

so which are the mistakes, you mentioned in the previous post? i want to understand your definition of mistake.

just because you say it's not a big deal doesn't make it so. i think it's absolutely ridiculous that the flyers were in that kind of position, literally having to sign a guy off the street to fill our their roster on the last day of the year in a pivotal game. it made a difference. and who's to say if they get the higher seed because they win that game, they that don't go on to win the cup that year. we'll never know.

i don't want them trading meszaros, who's arguable they're most offensive dman, which every team needs, for cap flexibility.

so which are the mistakes, you mentioned in the previous post? i want to understand your definition of mistake.
- hammarby31

Don't take a laxative and a sleeping pill on the same night?

No, it's not better. You can certainly make a valid argument that it was a bad trade. My argument is simply this. They weren't forced to make the trade due to poor Cap management. They mad a choice to accept that trade, in order to bring Giroux back onto the team. There were other choices. It's not a pointless discussion when that trade is being used to point out poor cap management.
- MJL

Did they have the cap room to bring Giroux back without making a trade? No.

So if they wanted Giroux back, they had to make a trade to clear enough cap room. That's pretty much the definition of piss poor cap management.

You might think it's not a big deal or that it's not a mistake. You're wrong. They wasted a fairly high draft pick and traded a decent player for a lesser player for the sole purpose of gaining cap room. In any rational person's standard, that's bad cap management.

If you're reduced to arguing whether it was a decision or if they were forced, it pretty much means your argument is invalid. The decision was to bring up Giroux. That forced them to make a move. Hopefully that description meets the high set standards of semantics needed to close the conversation.

- Tomahawk

The Future Mrs. Mike Tyson???

and the wheels on the bus go round and round

Did they have the cap room to bring Giroux back without making a trade? No.

So if they wanted Giroux back, they had to make a trade to clear enough cap room. That's pretty much the definition of piss poor cap management.

You might think it's not a big deal or that it's not a mistake. You're wrong. They wasted a fairly high draft pick and traded a decent player for a lesser player for the sole purpose of gaining cap room. In any rational person's standard, that's bad cap management.

If you're reduced to arguing whether it was a decision or if they were forced, it pretty much means your argument is invalid. The decision was to bring up Giroux. That forced them to make a move. Hopefully that description meets the high set standards of semantics needed to close the conversation.
- Jsaquella

Yeah, the Upshall for Carcillo trade is the only real case I can think of where poor cap management forced them into a trade they didn't want to make. But that's the only time I think it's really bit them.

On the first day of Flyers training camp in Philadelphia, I was sitting near the ice with several other hockey writers. As the players skated, I mentioned offhand that the Flyers had signed Chris VandeVelde to a minor league contract with the Adirondack Phantoms but that arrangement might be temporary with the team maxed out at 50 NHL contracts. The contracts of Taylor Leier and Anthony Stolarz had not yet slid for the season to their junior teams. I thought there was at least an outside possibility that VandeVelde could end up on a two-way NHL/AHL contract.

Two colleagues nodded. The third responded, "Who?"
- bmeltzer

I'm guessing the 3rd colleague was Panaccio.

MJL,

The "problem" itself is running out of cap space. That is what everyone is always talking about when they say cap problems. Yes, we get what you are saying.. its not a "problem" that you can't sign every player in the league, its just part of the cap... nobody ever denied that.

The PROBLEM the Flyers run into when trying to sign a player is the CAP itself, therefore THAT is the cap problem. Its a GIVEN by almost everyone... its "understood" what people mean when they say "cap problems"... that being: the flyers cannot do this or that because of the salary cap that is in place = "cap problem"

So, while you consistently maintain that there is no problem, just the existence of a CAP, I'll argue that the existence of the cap is the reason the Flyers have a "problem" making certain moves. Surely, you understand that though?
- mikel33

So by your definition, all 30 NHL teams have a cap problem? In the context of looking at whether a team has a Cap problem, or doesn't have a Cap problem, that is not the correct way of looking at it, in my opinion. Because in that context every team has a cap problem.

Did they have the cap room to bring Giroux back without making a trade? No.

So if they wanted Giroux back, they had to make a trade to clear enough cap room. That's pretty much the definition of piss poor cap management.

You might think it's not a big deal or that it's not a mistake. You're wrong. They wasted a fairly high draft pick and traded a decent player for a lesser player for the sole purpose of gaining cap room. In any rational person's standard, that's bad cap management.

If you're reduced to arguing whether it was a decision or if they were forced, it pretty much means your argument is invalid. The decision was to bring up Giroux. That forced them to make a move. Hopefully that description meets the high set standards of semantics needed to close the conversation.
- Jsaquella

Woah, woah, woah. Criticize the Flyers cap management and what not, that's all fine by me. But don't go calling the great Dan Carcillo a 'lesser player'. He's the new seventh wonder of the world, and looking to climb the rankings.

I'm guessing the 3rd colleague was Panaccio.
- jmatchett383

get a life.

Woah, woah, woah. Criticize the Flyers cap management and what not, that's all fine by me. But don't go calling the great Dan Carcillo a 'lesser player'. He's the new seventh wonder of the world, and looking to climb the rankings.


- BulliesPhan87

i heard he leveled lindros too. that wasn't really stevens.

get a life.
- hammarby31

I'm married and my wife is pregnant, and therefore unable to do so.

i heard he leveled lindros too. that wasn't really stevens.
- hammarby31

Studies are ongoing, but it's possible Dan Carcillo is retroactively responsible for most injuries through NHL history.

I thought the cap was about league parity, thats the lie we've been told anyway.
- twotoekenn

That's a byproduct of the Cap. The cap is all about limiting player salaries, and nothing more.

Studies are ongoing, but it's possible Dan Carcillo is retroactively responsible for most injuries through NHL history.
- BulliesPhan87

He's also scored the last 9 Stanley Cup-winning goals.

That's a byproduct of the Cap. The cap is all about limiting player salaries, and nothing more.
- MJL

Alright, I'll play too. Besides the Devils being forced to ice an 18-man roster (or 17, whatever it was), can you give an example of a team that mismanaged the cap and how they were affected by it?

That's a byproduct of the Cap. The cap is all about limiting player salaries, and nothing more.
- MJL

Not making owners more and more money?

Yeah, the Upshall for Carcillo trade is the only real case I can think of where poor cap management forced them into a trade they didn't want to make. But that's the only time I think it's really bit them.
- jmatchett383

Simon Gagne, coming off 17 goals in 58 games for a 4th rounder and Matt Walker?

Several cases of guys having to play on PTOs because they lacked the cap room to recall somebody

Alright, I'll play too. Besides the Devils being forced to ice an 18-man roster (or 17, whatever it was), can you give an example of a team that mismanaged the cap and how they were affected by it?
- jmatchett383

Detroit trading Ville Leino for a half crippled Ole Kristian Tollefsen.

The Flyers are far from the lone team that has made cap mistakes. Pointing out the Flyers errors isn't necessarily calling them inept. It's just mentioning that they've made some mistakes

I'm married and my wife is pregnant, and therefore unable to do so.
- jmatchett383

case closed. no one can overcome this argument

Did they have the cap room to bring Giroux back without making a trade? No.

So if they wanted Giroux back, they had to make a trade to clear enough cap room. That's pretty much the definition of piss poor cap management.

You might think it's not a big deal or that it's not a mistake. You're wrong. They wasted a fairly high draft pick and traded a decent player for a lesser player for the sole purpose of gaining cap room. In any rational person's standard, that's bad cap management.

If you're reduced to arguing whether it was a decision or if they were forced, it pretty much means your argument is invalid. The decision was to bring up Giroux. That forced them to make a move. Hopefully that description meets the high set standards of semantics needed to close the conversation.


- Jsaquella

It's not close to being semantics. And you can say I'm wrong all you want. But using that as an example of poor cap management is wrong in my opinion. You can certainly argue that the trade itself was a bad trade. But they were not forced to make that trade. There's always other options when putting a roster together and deciding what player moves to make. One of those options that they had at the time, was leaving Giroux in the minors, and not making a trade at all. So how were they forced to make a trade, when that option, and others were available to them?
The entire context of the conversation was about Cap mismanagement. And you brought up the example of that trade, as evidence of it. I disagree with that. So it's not a invalid argument to debate whether it was a choice or they were forced to make it. It is the entire argument in a nutshell.
The idea is to put the best team on the ice that you can, under the parameters of the salary cap. The Flyers were willing to basically exchange Upshall and a 2nd round pick, for Giroux and Carcillo in the lineup. Which was the end results. I'm okay with that result. It's no different then deciding who makes your team at the end of training camp, or which player to keep or sign in the off season.

Detroit trading Ville Leino for a half crippled Ole Kristian Tollefsen.

The Flyers are far from the lone team that has made cap mistakes. Pointing out the Flyers errors isn't necessarily calling them inept. It's just mentioning that they've made some mistakes
- Jsaquella

Holland gets a pass now due to the fact that Leino is 3/4 crippled.

THE ACTUAL SOLUTION IS TO GET RID OF THE CUP SO WE CAN GO BACK TO WINNING STANLEY CUPS EVERY SINGLE YEAR BECAUSE ED SNIDER MAKES IT RAIN ALL DAY LONG

Not making owners more and more money?
- twotoekenn

Another byproduct of the cap, at least in theory.