i know you've said it in the past but i really agree the defense will look alot better if the team defense improves.

I look at some of the teams in the East and I dont see all that much more talent on their bluelines. I mean i like guys like Reinhart and Hamonic on the Isles but they arent a pair of studs or anything. Phaneuf and Subban are good but beyond that neither team is stacked back there... same with the Pens and Sens and Devils
- Crimsoninja

My issues with this D lie in a few things.

The health and age of the group is concerning. They will need to be revamped in a short time anyway imo.

They have a real minus in the speed department, and the puck-movers on the D lack transition speed as well.

As a collective group they are too inconsistent to me, and frankly? For having a bunch of big bodies on the defense. They dont really intimidate.

And Reinhart was sent back to juniors today. In the "long term" Islanders plans I guess/
- ob18

i do understand though that you really do need that one stud ala Chara, Letang, PK, Karlsson.. or even Larsson someday soon, etc really make a team go these days and the Flyers do lack that.

i do understand though that you really do need that one stud ala Chara, Letang, PK, Karlsson.. or even Larsson someday soon, etc really make a team go these days and the Flyers do lack that.
- Crimsoninja

Gut feeling?

Flyers will be foolish and think Yandle is that guy.

i do understand though that you really do need that one stud ala Chara, Letang, PK, Karlsson.. or even Larsson someday soon, etc really make a team go these days and the Flyers do lack that.
- Crimsoninja

And even if they do have that with Morin he's at least 2 years if not even longer away. If they wanted that sooner then Zadorov was probably the choice.

Gut feeling?

Flyers will be foolish and think Yandle is that guy.
- flyer_nutter

i thought a page or two back you were coming up with ways to get him

maybe i misread

i thought a page or two back you were coming up with ways to get him

maybe i misread
- Crimsoninja

No you are right.


Yandle for definately help, and I would be alright with bringing him in for a reasonable cost. They would still need to upgrade further though, he is not a #1 d-man.

Makes sense. We differ on a few things but Im with you on waiting to see what Berube does.

Evaluation year for everyone.

The one thing I will say, I think most of the guys on this team are what they are. You will (hopefully) see further development out of Coots/bSchenn but the rest to me are established in who they are.

I'm done with excuses, if this team by the end of the year shows they are, when I think they will be... It will be time to face reality. 78 games though, who knows what can happen.
- flyer_nutter

If they've established who they are, the Flyers are in good shape. Two forwards who are PPG players who can take over a game, a couple of physical wingers who can score 25-30 goals and provide grit, A speedy, versatile winger capable of 20+ goals and who is an elite level PK guy.

That's a good foundation and they're all pretty young.

As far as excuses, I don't deal in them. I deal in reality. Losing Pronger was a massive blow. It's not an excuse, it's a reality. You can't just run out and replace him in a trade without gutting a big part of the roster or the future or both.

But I'm also not going to say, "Well, it's time to rebuild and even if we're in a playoff spot, I'm shipping out vets" The only vet that really looks like he might be at the end of his rope is Timonen, and honestly, he could very well rebound and provide something close to his past level of play.

It all depends on how they play in the next 50 or so games. If they're still struggling and scuffling along in December, absolutely, start selling. But selling for the sake of selling isn't a good plan.

i know you've said it in the past but i really agree the defense will look alot better if the team defense improves.

I look at some of the teams in the East and I dont see all that much more talent on their bluelines. I mean i like guys like Reinhart and Hamonic on the Isles but they arent a pair of studs or anything. Phaneuf and Subban are good but beyond that neither team is stacked back there... same with the Pens and Sens and Devils
- Crimsoninja

I just am unwilling to render a final verdict on a group who I feel was badly misused by the former coach.

Yes, they're immobile and they lack a true number one guy. Yes, they have limitations as to what they can do.

But at the same time, who was Ottawa's stud defenseman last season? Karlsson was out and they relied on a slew of AHLers, Sergei Gonchar and great team defense & goaltending to make the playoffs. Look at the Isles. Their defense is far from great and their goalie was hardly a Vezina candidate. They played a system that fit their capabilities.

I want to see how this defense responds to a system more suited to show case their strong points and hide their weaknesses.

You're right Montreal woUldnt now. But 10 months ago I bet they'd jump all over that. You'd have said 10 months ago we are overpaying but today you would do it in a heartbeat. Montreal was on the verge of trading subban aNd could have been had. We might have overpaid at the time (in our minds) but in actuality it would have been a steal. You say my trade proposals are in realistic? I said 10 monthago trade coOts for subban overpay if need be. Looking back you just agreed you'd do same thing. So stop saying this isn't 14 playstation trades. Someone just posted about brodin. So ok if homer identifies him as the answer to #1 dman problem then go get him. Overpay ( in out minds) if need be. Hopefully in s year we look we look back and say it's not overpayment just like you'd be saying today if homer weNt out and got subban as I suggested. Again any player can be had.
- SMS4016

No Montreal wouldn't have jumped all over it. And no Montreal never entertained trading Subban.
You don't seem to consider that there is another team involved. And that teams don't want to trade their young defenseman. Whether you overpay or not.

If they're a few years off, keep the picks and kids and then get Subban as a free agent. He's not likely to give the Habs a home town discount after their dealings with him this past contract and then you can strike and not have to trade any assets for him.
- Jsaquella

Ideally I'd agree then parise, suter happened. That a huge risk. I agree I don't think Montreal is getting a discount and if I'm subban I'd leave just on the principle that they screwed him over. Man I miss the days looking at who's free agent and saying we can get them for sure. Not true anymore.

I'd rather they build for a true cup contender
- SMS4016

Thy can do both. The Blackhawks did, after they won the Cup in 2010, they lost a lot of pieces due to the cap. They retooled on the fly and won another, last year

If they've established who they are, the Flyers are in good shape. Two forwards who are PPG players who can take over a game, a couple of physical wingers who can score 25-30 goals and provide grit, A speedy, versatile winger capable of 20+ goals and who is an elite level PK guy.

That's a good foundation and they're all pretty young.

As far as excuses, I don't deal in them. I deal in reality. Losing Pronger was a massive blow. It's not an excuse, it's a reality. You can't just run out and replace him in a trade without gutting a big part of the roster or the future or both.

But I'm also not going to say, "Well, it's time to rebuild and even if we're in a playoff spot, I'm shipping out vets" The only vet that really looks like he might be at the end of his rope is Timonen, and honestly, he could very well rebound and provide something close to his past level of play.

It all depends on how they play in the next 50 or so games. If they're still struggling and scuffling along in December, absolutely, start selling. But selling for the sake of selling isn't a good plan.
- Jsaquella

The vets I would consider dealing include Hartnell, Talbot and Hall.

On defense its basically anyone other than Luke Schenn.

If they are in a playoff spot, and have shown really good and improved play then no I dont sell. However if its consistent inconsistency, or they are flirting with the playoffs I deal at the deadline.

This at the end comes down to whether you believe they are close to competing, or a little longer like 2-3 years? I think with the mess that D is, and the collective injury history/age of it. They wont be contending until that is fixed. In that case, I would be willing to deal the above mentioned forwards in the RIGHT deals. Thats the key to all of this. The right deals.

That why I say homer and Ed should realize after watching this team last year or so that dman is needed. Get the scouts together and go get a guy. Buy high buy low I don't care anymore. As long as we get him. No one wanted to trade coots and schenn for weber but what has it gotten us? Were going to rebuild anyways. Now if this team was so bad as to pick in the top 5 I'd say go that route buT even as bad as they are playing I still think they come close to playoffs they are just stagnet now
- SMS4016

The Flyers in recent times attempted to get Ryan Suter and Shea Weber. I think both "homer and Ed" are well aware of and realize what they need.

Ideally I'd agree then parise, suter happened. That a huge risk. I agree I don't think Montreal is getting a discount and if I'm subban I'd leave just on the principle that they screwed him over. Man I miss the days looking at who's free agent and saying we can get them for sure. Not true anymore.
- SMS4016

Even if they can't land him as a free agent, it makes more sense to wait. If they've used their picks smartly and built a good, young team, it's easier to trade a slew of high picks for a guy like Subban.

Who knows, say they trade for Subban now, and he gets tired of being here for the rebuild and says, "The Hell with this, I want to win now" when he hits UFA? Same boat.

At least some one gets it. Elite talent is what this team and fan base needs. Look at what we gave up for lindros. Now debatable whether we won that trade but the principle is the same. I get roasted alot but I know if we had traded coots,read,1rst for subban 10 months ago we'd be laughing today
- SMS4016

A big if. Montreal would not have accepted that trade.

No Montreal wouldn't have jumped all over it. And no Montreal never entertained trading Subban.
You don't seem to consider that there is another team involved. And that teams don't want to trade their young defenseman. Whether you overpay or not.
- MJL

You do realize we almost traded g to Florida right? I'm not saying Montreal was just going to give him away but for sure he could have been had with the contract dispute. Especially if we overpaid. Montreal is thanking their lucky stars they didn't trade him. Their was tons of debate and complaining about subban the last few years. If schenn holds out next year and someone over pays us for him he will be traded in a heartbeat

The vets I would consider dealing include Hartnell, Talbot and Hall.

On defense its basically anyone other than Luke Schenn.

If they are in a playoff spot, and have shown really good and improved play then no I dont sell. However if its consistent inconsistency, or they are flirting with the playoffs I deal at the deadline.

This at the end comes down to whether you believe they are close to competing, or a little longer like 2-3 years? I think with the mess that D is, and the collective injury history/age of it. They wont be contending until that is fixed. In that case, I would be willing to deal the above mentioned forwards in the RIGHT deals. Thats the key to all of this. The right deals.
- flyer_nutter

It's really hard for me to blindly agree that the defense is a mess, because I don't think they have been used properly for the past two or three years.

Also, 2 of the guys playing in the top six right now are free agents in the summer. They could make a couple of good moves in the summer and end up with everyone slotted properly and being used right and transform the defense quickly.

We'll be patient and we'll be dealing with these same problems 2 months, 4months, 6months, and all next year until we decide to do something about it.
- SMS4016

In making a trade, especially for a #1 defenseman. It takes far more them deciding to do something about it. It takes another team to agree to trade for the player. You make it sound like one, the Flyers and fans aren't aware that they need a # 1 defenseman. Which is silly. And secondly, that all they have to do is decide to do something about it. Which is also silly.

I'd rather they build for a true cup contender
- SMS4016

They can build a cup contender without being a bottom-feeder for several years. They just need to draft well.

Thy can do both. The Blackhawks did, after they won the Cup in 2010, they lost a lot of pieces due to the cap. They retooled on the fly and won another, last year
- Jsaquella

[url]

See I think a big thing with this is the core of the BlackHawks. Its dominant, and can be counted on, as evidenced clearly in the success.

They managed to keep that core generally intact. I would venture to say that the current core of the Flyers is nowhere close to the level of talent required to win the Stanley Cup, and may have been over-estimated in the past leading to the Richards/Carter deals.

The thing what I think the "sms" guy was saying is that the core of this team needs more elite talent. I will agree with that definately. Its a collective team that wins a cup, everyone matters, but you need that true solid core. I have my questions with the one currently constructed.

I'd be willing to deal depth, and some of the forward veterans to improve that "elite talent" gap. I would also, under the right deal, be willing to deal some of the youth to improve that, because while I do think they are solid players, I have questions about just how much of that "elite" they have in them.

Patience, but calculated patience.

I just am unwilling to render a final verdict on a group who I feel was badly misused by the former coach.

Yes, they're immobile and they lack a true number one guy. Yes, they have limitations as to what they can do.

But at the same time, who was Ottawa's stud defenseman last season? Karlsson was out and they relied on a slew of AHLers, Sergei Gonchar and great team defense & goaltending to make the playoffs. Look at the Isles. Their defense is far from great and their goalie was hardly a Vezina candidate. They played a system that fit their capabilities.

I want to see how this defense responds to a system more suited to show case their strong points and hide their weaknesses.
- Jsaquella

[url]

See I think a big thing with this is the core of the BlackHawks. Its dominant, and can be counted on, as evidenced clearly in the success.

They managed to keep that core generally intact. I would venture to say that the current core of the Flyers is nowhere close to the level of talent required to win the Stanley Cup, and may have been over-estimated in the past leading to the Richards/Carter deals.

The thing what I think the "sms" guy was saying is that the core of this team needs more elite talent. I will agree with that definately. Its a collective team that wins a cup, everyone matters, but you need that true solid core. I have my questions with the one currently constructed.

I'd be willing to deal depth, and some of the forward veterans to improve that "elite talent" gap. I would also, under the right deal, be willing to deal some of the youth to improve that, because while I do think they are solid players, I have questions about just how much of that "elite" they have in them.

Patience, but calculated patience.


- flyer_nutter

I'm willing to do all that as well. I'm not against trading for elite talent, but I am against making a trade just because it means elite talent will come in immediately at a high cost.

Also, if this team is as bad as some folks feel, then you're not going to get much value, unless you trade a LOT of the youth to acquire the elite players that we keep talking about.

You do realize we almost traded g to Florida right? I'm not saying Montreal was just going to give him away but for sure he could have been had with the contract dispute. Especially if we overpaid. Montreal is thanking their lucky stars they didn't trade him. Their was tons of debate and complaining about subban the last few years. If schenn holds out next year and someone over pays us for him he will be traded in a heartbeat
- SMS4016

I'd love to know where you get your information. Montreal was trying to trade Subban. And the Flyers almost traded Giroux to Florida? For who? Subban was never made available by Montreal. Subban had no leverage, and wasn't going anywhere.

Thy can do both. The Blackhawks did, after they won the Cup in 2010, they lost a lot of pieces due to the cap. They retooled on the fly and won another, last year
- Jsaquella

Toews, Kane, Keith, god the list goes on of elite talent. Us? Maybe g. Oh and while we wait and build through the draft we would have to beat teams suCH as Boston Chicago Pittsburgh la yep. Look at these teams elite players and look at ours. At best we are the misted overall talented of the 2nd tier. Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo cup!!!! Those teams aren't going to get worse? But teams like Edmonton islander blue jackets etc pass us by. Look at these teams young talent with elite potential. Look at ours.

Ok now if Montreal called today. Knowing what you know if Montreal wanted to trade subban for coots, read, and a 1st Would you make that trade? Yes or no
- SMS4016

The more likely call would be for Couts, B. Schenn and 1st.