And he was one of the only players who could go toe to toe with Pronger, esp. when they put him (Prongs) in front on the PP (hence the pic I posted)
- exlund

I was just kidding about Gagne. I actually thought Buff was instrumental to that Cup win. Pronger had tossed Kane and Toews around in the 2 Philly games. About 30 seconds into game 5, he went into the corner and stood up to Pronger, a sign of "You can do that all you want, and we'll keep coming" embodies into a fight in the corner. Sometimes it's just as important as scoring a goal.

This is key. There has been a lot of talk about Buff and the need for his offensive production, but he's hardly a two way defenseman, which I agree, is what the Flyers are sorely lacking.
- mcefalu

I think that's a very important distinction that should be made.

I think that's a very important distinction that should be made.
- MJL

It's been made. You don't play 24 minutes a night, against a decent level of competition and start half of your shifts in your own end if you're a bad defensive player.

Nobody's saying Byfuglien is a great defensive player, but he's not a fat Mike Green, either, as you seem to feel.

Think he can be a pretty decent Chris Therien clone, but I suspect that he won't ever be able to control a game physically like he was able to do as a teen, and that precludes him from having the kind of impact that you look for from a top-pairing kind of guy.
- Tomahawk

I think he can be a much better player then Therien was. I'll be disappointed if that's all he becomes. I think he's at that level now. And whether he reaches the level of a top pairing defenseman is going to depend on his improvement in reading and anticipating plays. And superior positioning. Not on his physical ability. He already has that.

Honestly, I'm not worried about how fat he is. He's always been that way and he's still been uber-productive and has won a Cup.

My problem is adding him to a mix of guys that are already undisciplined and inconsistent as a group. If we had a rock-solid leadership group like Chicago's, I think we could absorb a lot of the good that Buff brings, and mitigate a lot of the bad.

But Byfuglien and Hartnell on the same team would keep me up at night, for sure.
- Tomahawk

Byfuglien is intriguing for sure. The combination of skill set and size is rare, and he has put up good numbers for most of his career. Not exactly sure what was going on with him being in the dog house most of last year, but iirc it had something to do with his d-zone play and/or discipline on the ice. I agree with you that those are the biggest concerns with Buf, and for exactly the reasons you stated. I'm always leery of guys that don't appear committed and/or disciplined, but you can't deny that whatever his fitness issues may be, he puts up numbers and eats up minutes.

If I was a GM, I'd want to meet with him and discuss my concerns before I acquired him. If he could convince me he had sufficient commitment to fitness, etc., and that he wouldn't be a problem in the room, then I'd be willing to make a fair trade for him, or sign him as a free agent (assuming he was an FA). If not, I'd pass.

Now what constitutes a fair trade? Seems like opinions vary widely on that. For the deal to work for the Flyers, it almost seems a given that they'ed have to send a d-man back just to make the roster space for Buf. And I don't know that we have anyone they'd really want in that scenario. Maybe Coburn? Maybe Mezsaros since he's an expiring contract? Can't see them being too interested in Grossmann. It's kind of hard to figure how this would work out for both teams.

I am sure that this has been posted, but some interesting comments from Joe Thornton about Hertl scoring 4 goals and what he would do if he had scored 4.

http://blogs.canoe.ca/sla...-out-if-i-scored-4-goals/

Schenn has a decent shot. I think he will eventually become more of an offensive threat.
- Feanor

Takes too long to unload it. I think 20-25 pts in a Season is all we will see out of L. Schenn offensively.

By my estimation:

1) Chara
2) Weber
3) Keith
4) Karlsson
5) Suter
6) Pietrangelo
7) Doughty
8) Subban
9) OEL
10) Letang
11) Phaneuf
12) Kronwall
13) Enstrom
14) Markov
15) Green
16) Byfuglien
17) Bouwmeester
18) Boyle


Honorable mention: Edler, Campbell, Pitkanen
- Tomahawk

I'd put Edler above a number of players on your list. Including Green, Byfuglien, Bouwmeester, and Boyle. And he's certainly equal to Enstrom, Kronwall, and Markov.

indeed, not enuf value
- isaiah520

If both players reach their potential, a top pairing physical defensive defenseman is far more valuable then a goal scoring Winger. Especially with how hard it is to find top defenseman these days. Wing is the least important position on the ice as far as I'm concerned. Hard to understand how the trade can be looked at as not enough value in return. If they are, then they are drastically overrating JVR.

If he can pick his spots a little better, that would be nice. If he could improve on his skating, that would be nice, but as was stated, positional play can cover up for skating, so that would be nice too.
- jmatchett383

That's where the growth needs to come from with Schenn. His positional game, and reading and anticipating plays. The best defenseman seem to snuff out a play before it gets started. He's never going to be a player that can control and affect the possession game. Or rack up points.

I think he can be a much better player then Therien was. I'll be disappointed if that's all he becomes. I think he's at that level now. And whether he reaches the level of a top pairing defenseman is going to depend on his improvement in reading and anticipating plays. And superior positioning. Not on his physical ability. He already has that.
- MJL

The reason he looked so good in Junior and the WJC was because he was already built like an NHL player at the age of 17-18. He could throw guys around like rag dolls and kids would be scared to go near him because he'd literally destroy them along the walls.

The fear element isn't as big of an advantage against pro players, so he's fallen back into the pack with other dmen of his age group.

Yeah, he needs to continue to fine tune his game to maximize his defensive utility... I just don't think he can ever dominate physically/defensively like he did in Junior.

It's been made. You don't play 24 minutes a night, against a decent level of competition and start half of your shifts in your own end if you're a bad defensive player.

Nobody's saying Byfuglien is a great defensive player, but he's not a fat Mike Green, either, as you seem to feel.
- Jsaquella

Byfuglien is a poor defender in my opinion. He's undisciplined, he runs around in his zone, and he cheats on the offensive end. Not the player we need in my opinion. In my opinion he's not the player you seem to feel he is.
The fitness issue just seals the deal. Zero interest in him as a player. I don't care if Winnipeg is giving him away. No thanks.
If you think that Byfuglien is the top two way defender that this team should build it's defense around, that's fine. I don't. So we'll agree to disagree.

The reason he looked so good in Junior and the WJC was because he was already built like an NHL player at the age of 17-18. He could throw guys around like rag dolls and kids would be scared to go near him because he'd literally destroy them along the walls.

The fear element isn't as big of an advantage against pro players, so he's fallen back into the pack with other dmen of his age group.

Yeah, he needs to continue to fine tune his game to maximize his defensive utility... I just don't think he can ever dominate physically/defensively like he did in Junior.
- Tomahawk

His Junior career has zero to do with my opinion of him as a player. I did not see him play a single game in junior hockey. He clearly already has a huge physical element to his game. In fact at times, he needs to tone that aspect down. As he can sometimes lose positioning in going for a hit. Fear doesn't have much to do with it, in my opinion. Good NHL players don't fear anybody. If he can combine an already imposing physical package, with improved positioning, and reading and anticipation of plays. He can be a legitimate top pairing defensive defenseman.

Byfuglien is a poor defender in my opinion. He's undisciplined, he runs around in his zone, and he cheats on the offensive end. Not the player we need in my opinion. In my opinion he's not the player you seem to feel he is.
The fitness issue just seals the deal. Zero interest in him as a player. I don't care if Winnipeg is giving him away. No thanks.
- MJL

Except the facts don't bear out the opinion.

He plays the second toughest minutes on his team, starts half of his shifts in the defensive zone and ends more than half in the other team's end. He plays the most minutes of a pretty solid defense corps, and has added the responsibilities of being on the PK to everything else.

In addition his other advanced stats(Corsi, Fenwick) show that he's a competent defensive player. Are his careless moments, where he cheats or runs around the zone any worse than when one of the Flyers current "Stay at home" types do it? Because they do. Coburn, Schenn, Grossmann and Meszaros all have blown coverages through undisciplined play...and they don;t bring anywhere close to the offensive production that Byfuglien does to mitigate their own shortcomings.

Seriously, the Flyers have guys doing the same things you don't like about Byfuglien and they don't provide any of the benefit he does.

Except the facts don't bear out the opinion.

He plays the second toughest minutes on his team, starts half of his shifts in the defensive zone and ends more than half in the other team's end. He plays the most minutes of a pretty solid defense corps, and has added the responsibilities of being on the PK to everything else.

In addition his other advanced stats(Corsi, Fenwick) show that he's a competent defensive player. Are his careless moments, where he cheats or runs around the zone any worse than when one of the Flyers current "Stay at home" types do it? Because they do. Coburn, Schenn, Grossmann and Meszaros all have blown coverages through undisciplined play...and they don;t bring anywhere close to the offensive production that Byfuglien does to mitigate their own shortcomings.

Seriously, the Flyers have guys doing the same things you don't like about Byfuglien and they don't provide any of the benefit he does.
- Jsaquella

If you think that he's the top 2 way defenseman that this team should build it's defense around, that's fine. I don't. That would be a colossal mistake, in my opinion. So we'll agree to disagree.

Ryan Parent was a shutdown/top pair D in juniors and was paired with Marc Staal during Canada's 2006 world juniors run and was considered a can't miss prospect. Sometimes what a player does in juniors is really the top of their potential.

Ryan Parent was a shutdown/top pair D in juniors and was paired with Marc Staal during Canada's 2006 world juniors run and was considered a can't miss prospect. Sometimes what a player does in juniors is really the top of their potential.
- ob18

Yep, you never know what's going to happen.

Yep, you never know what's going to happen.
- MJL

Looking at their teams Danny Svret was on the 2005 roster with Shea Weber, Brent Seabrook, Dion Phaneuf, Braydon Coburn, Cam Barker, & Shawn Belle (don't recall him)

That was one loaded roster.

Good news Samuel Morin will return to play Saturday after being out with an injury

His Junior career has zero to do with my opinion of him as a player. I did not see him play a single game in junior hockey.
- MJL

Any top-pairing level expectations of him are rooted in his Junior hockey days, when he was the WHL's Scott Stevens.

If he wasn't such a dominating force in Junior, he wouldn't have gone 5th-overall, nor would anybody have ever thought to place the "franchise" tag on him, and speak of him in the same breath as the other dmen that went at the top of that draft.

We definitely wouldn't be debating his ceiling today if it weren't for his many Junior exploits.

Good NHL players don't fear anybody.
- MJL

You might want to ask Paul Kariya and Eric Lindros if Scott Stevens was in their heads every time they carried the puck over the blueline after he nearly killed both of them.

If he can combine an already imposing physical package, with improved positioning, and reading and anticipation of plays. He can be a legitimate top pairing defensive defenseman.
- MJL

There are plenty of guys who are physical, positionally sound, and read a play well... but are any of them legit top-pairing dmen because of it?

Nik Grossmann is all of those things... he's a good dman, but we know he's not a dominating force that you'd want out on the ice 25+ mins per game.

For a defensive dman to be able to control the game, he needs to be as physically dominating as guys like Stevens, Potvin, Pronger and Chara were/are. Or... cover as much ice as Bouwmeester.

I don't know if Schenn has the tools to get to that level -- if not, he's Therien/Orpik/Scuderi level at best.

Any top-pairing level expectations of him are rooted in his Junior hockey days, when he was the WHL's Scott Stevens.

If he wasn't such a dominating force in Junior, he wouldn't have gone 5th-overall, nor would anybody have ever thought to place the "franchise" tag on him, and speak of him in the same breath as the other dmen that went at the top of that draft.

We definitely wouldn't be debating his ceiling today if it weren't for his many Junior exploits.




You might want to ask Paul Kariya and Eric Lindros if Scott Stevens was in their heads every time they carried the puck over the blueline after he nearly killed both of them.




There are plenty of guys who are physical, positionally sound, and read a play well... but are any of them legit top-pairing dmen because of it?

Nik Grossmann is all of those things... he's a good dman, but we know he's not a dominating force that you'd want out on the ice 25+ mins per game.

For a defensive dman to be able to control the game, he needs to be as physically dominating as guys like Stevens, Potvin, Pronger and Chara were/are. Or... cover as much ice as Bouwmeester.

I don't know if Schenn has the tools to get to that level -- if not, he's Therien/Orpik/Scuderi level at best.
- Tomahawk

Can we just agree to disagree if I agree with you?

That sounds... I don't know... kinda creepy?
- 77rams

That sounds like you never saw True Romance

If you think that he's the top 2 way defenseman that this team should build it's defense around, that's fine. I don't. That would be a colossal mistake, in my opinion. So we'll agree to disagree.
- MJL

Since I don't recall saying anything that even closely resembled that, fine.


All I have said was, for the right price, I'd consider Byfuglien.

The guys I see as # 1 currently are:

Chara
Keith
Weber
Doughty
Karlsson

Letang (1A)
Seabrooke (1A)
Suter (1A)

Soon to be # 1
Pieterangelo
OEL
Subban
- PLindbergh31

Is Karlsson playing on the PK yet? Because if he's not, ya know

Is Karlsson playing on the PK yet? Because if he's not, ya know
- KINGKENZO

Outside of one year, he's averaged about 1:30-1:50 a game on the PK. He's not a primary PK guy, but he also gets rotated in.