Any top-pairing level expectations of him are rooted in his Junior hockey days, when he was the WHL's Scott Stevens.

If he wasn't such a dominating force in Junior, he wouldn't have gone 5th-overall, nor would anybody have ever thought to place the "franchise" tag on him, and speak of him in the same breath as the other dmen that went at the top of that draft.

We definitely wouldn't be debating his ceiling today if it weren't for his many Junior exploits.


- Tomahawk

Once a player is drafted, and enters the NHL. What kind of Junior career he had, is really irrelevant to what kind of NHL career that player will have. The expectations of him as a player are based on his talent level, and his physical skills. And how the scouts and talent evaluators feel that will translate to the NHL game. The NHL is full of players that had huge junior careers, that turned into nothing more then role players.

You might want to ask Paul Kariya and Eric Lindros if Scott Stevens was in their heads every time they carried the puck over the blueline after he nearly killed both of them.


- Tomahawk

Eric Lindros went head to head with Scott Stevens many times throughout his career. They even fought a number of time. Lindros clearly didn't fear Scott Stevens.

There are plenty of guys who are physical, positionally sound, and read a play well... but are any of them legit top-pairing dmen because of it?

Nik Grossmann is all of those things... he's a good dman, but we know he's not a dominating force that you'd want out on the ice 25+ mins per game.

For a defensive dman to be able to control the game, he needs to be as physically dominating as guys like Stevens, Potvin, Pronger and Chara were/are. Or... cover as much ice as Bouwmeester.

I don't know if Schenn has the tools to get to that level -- if not, he's Therien/Orpik/Scuderi level at best.
- Tomahawk

Nik Grossmann is not all of the things that make up a top pairing physical defenseman. If he was, he'd be a top pairing defenseman. Grossmann does not have the physical package that Luke Schenn has.
There's a difference between reading a play well, and being positionally sound, and being able to do those things at a higher level then just your solid stay at home defender, such as Grossmann or Coburn.
I think if you're looking for Luke Schenn to develop into a Stevens, Pronger, or Chara. I think you'll be disapointed. Those are all top #1 defenseman in this League. Schenn is not likely ever to become a #1 defenseman. But he certainly can become a top pairing physical stay at home compliment to a #1 on a top pairing.

Except the facts don't bear out the opinion.

He plays the second toughest minutes on his team, starts half of his shifts in the defensive zone and ends more than half in the other team's end. He plays the most minutes of a pretty solid defense corps, and has added the responsibilities of being on the PK to everything else.

In addition his other advanced stats(Corsi, Fenwick) show that he's a competent defensive player. Are his careless moments, where he cheats or runs around the zone any worse than when one of the Flyers current "Stay at home" types do it? Because they do. Coburn, Schenn, Grossmann and Meszaros all have blown coverages through undisciplined play...and they don;t bring anywhere close to the offensive production that Byfuglien does to mitigate their own shortcomings.

Seriously, the Flyers have guys doing the same things you don't like about Byfuglien and they don't provide any of the benefit he does.
- Jsaquella

Sums it up perfectly.

I would take Buff in a heartbeat for what he brings to the table in terms of offense. He gets soooooooo many pucks on net. And they are largely quality chances too. That element is sorely, sorely missing from our blueline to the point that opponents now cheat and fall back and crowd the forwards.

I haven't been on since my launch break today but that "39yr Kimmo over Buff in his prime" comment is absolutely ridiculous. Take away his storied history with the team, he's one of the bottom 3 D men on the team this year.

Since I don't recall saying anything that even closely resembled that, fine.


All I have said was, for the right price, I'd consider Byfuglien.
- Jsaquella

Well that's fine. But have you considered that this team only has so many bullets to use in terms of trade pieces? Or how about Cap space? We'll have the space that Timonen gives us if he doesn't come back. How do you best want to use it? Any defenseman that we bring in, in a trade. Where we give up top young assets to acquire, as well as using considerable Cap space. Has to be a defenseman that we can build the team around as far as I'm concerned. Byfuglien is not that player, in my opinion. And we already have Mark Streit.

Outside of one year, he's averaged about 1:30-1:50 a game on the PK. He's not a primary PK guy, but he also gets rotated in.
- Jsaquella

Thanks

Once a player is drafted, and enters the NHL. What kind of Junior career he had, is really irrelevant to what kind of NHL career that player will have. The expectations of him as a player are based on his talent level, and his physical skills. And how the scouts and talent evaluators feel that will translate to the NHL game. The NHL is full of players that had huge junior careers, that turned into nothing more then role players.
- MJL

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Based on talent level and physical skills, Luke Schenn is a #4 dman at best.

It's only when you consider the kind of Junior player that he was that you would begin to think he might have more upside than that.

Sums it up perfectly.

I would take Buff in a heartbeat for what he brings to the table in terms of offense. He gets soooooooo many pucks on net. And they are largely quality chances too. That element is sorely, sorely missing from our blueline to the point that opponents now cheat and fall back and crowd the forwards.

I haven't been on since my launch break today but that "39yr Kimmo over Buff in his prime" comment is absolutely ridiculous. Take away his storied history with the team, he's one of the bottom 3 D men on the team this year.
- hereticpride

Timonen right now is a better all around defenseman then Byfuglien is. The Season is 4 game old.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Based on talent level and physical skills, Luke Schenn is a #4 dman at best.

It's only when you consider the kind of Junior player that he was that you would begin to think he would have more upside than that.
- Tomahawk

I disagree. Based on his talent level and physical skills, he has top pairing potential, as a physical defensive defenseman.

Everybody just agree to disagree and move on already.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Based on talent level and physical skills, Luke Schenn is a #4 dman at best.

It's only when you consider the kind of Junior player that he was that you would begin to think he might have more upside than that.
- Tomahawk

If we only look at his NHL play, when we traded for him he was a 6-7.

I disagree. Based on his talent level and physical skills, he has top pairing potential, as a physical defensive defenseman.
- MJL

I agree, too many dump on Luke, he's better then a #4

Everybody just agree to disagree and move on already.
- ob18

What would you like to talk about man? What's stirring the home fire?

Stolarz starts tonight for London

What would you like to talk about man? What's stirring the home fire?
- mayorofangrytown

Morin will return from injury on Saturday

Everybody just agree to disagree and move on already.
- ob18

What would you like to talk about man? What's stirring the home fire?
- mayorofangrytown

Couts for Gardiner

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Based on talent level and physical skills, Luke Schenn is a #4 dman at best.

It's only when you consider the kind of Junior player that he was that you would begin to think he might have more upside than that.
- Tomahawk

Pwned

Stolarz starts tonight for London
- ob18

Does Oshawa play tonight. I've been too busy to look today. I don't even know the NHL schedule tonight.

Morin will return from injury on Saturday
- ob18

What's his potential?

Does Oshawa play tonight. I've been too busy to look today. I don't even know the NHL schedule tonight.
- mayorofangrytown

Yes they are in action at 7:30 against Barrie

I agree, too many dump on Luke, he's better then a #4
- puckhead17

A #4 is a pretty good plyr...just usually not a gm changer

What's his potential?

- MJL

I leave that for others to debate.

Couts for Gardiner
- puckhead17

How about Read and Couturier for both the Toronto Doghouse boys.

Well that's fine. But have you considered that this team only has so many bullets to use in terms of trade pieces? Or how about Capspace? We'll have the space that Timonen gives us if he doesn't come back. How do you best want to use it? Any defenseman that we bring in, in a trade. Where we give up top young assets to acquire, as well as using considerable Cap space. Has to be a defenseman that we can build the team around as far as I'm concerned. Byfuglien is not that player, in my opinion. And we already have Mark Streit.
- MJL

Apparently you missed the portion of my post that said "for the right price"....as in, if they demanded Couturier or Schenn, or any other price deemed too extravagant, you say, "Thanks, but no thanks" and move on.

As for cap space, they have $7.5mm tied up this year in an injury prone Meszaros and a one dimensional Grossmann. If the Jets would take one of them as part of the deal, it would mitigate the cap implications greatly.

I'm not arguing that they need Byfuglien. I'm not saying that they HAVE to go out and trade for him right now. He wouldn't be my first choice. But to dismiss him out of hand is ignoring that adding him would likely improve the team.

A #4 is a pretty good plyr...just usually not a gm changer
- isaiah520

he's top 4 with the right offensive partner, but he's better then the credit he gets

I like EK's description of Lavy's system comparing it to the NFL's west coast offense.

no wonder we were struggling, despite the fact it worked in the past, a lot of personnel changes with different players can't help the situation

A #4 is a pretty good plyr...just usually not a gm changer
- isaiah520

Some say that trade calls for a gm changer.