Seriously?

This is just simple overvaluing of players. One coaching change and one system change doesn't negate entirely whatever limitations a player has.

Starting at the same point, a slow player is going to lose a puck race to Pavel Bure, no matter who the coach is, what team they play for, no matter what system they play.

At some point, you have to realize and acknowledge that the other teams have players and coaches, too. And as of this point in the season, the Flyers have one victory: Over the team that last year had the worst record in the entire league.

No one wants to be overly negative, and I understand your point on that. But moving a player or two out of the lineup or bringing in a player or two from elsewhere wouldn't exactly be breaking up the 1980s Edmonton Oilers.

That's just being honest. Not a native of Negadelphia, or a Kool-Aid Drinker. That's just reality.
- AllInForFlyers

So your in favor of what, exactly?

EDIT: *you're

I agree about Hartnell and Simmonds. They're good on the PP as they're big bodies that can slam-dunk home pucks. Actually, Simmonds always tries that "drag it out from the side of the net and try to flip it home" play that NEVER WORKS. But if you want to use them as fairly stationary players that are the to cause havoc on a PP, fine. But their combined mobility can be an issue 5-on-5.
- jmatchett383

I like a line to have some balance to it. I just think having two similar players on the Wing, takes away options for Giroux. Teams don't have to worry about Hartnell or Simmonds carrying the puck, and holding onto it and drawing defenders to them, to create space for others. And I think the lack of speed on the wing is a detriment also.

I like a line to have some balance to it. I just think having two similar players on the Wing, takes away options for Giroux. Teams don't have to worry about Hartnell or Simmonds carrying the puck, and holding onto it and drawing defenders to them, to create space for others. And I think the lack of speed on the wing is a detriment also.
- MJL

Pretty much. Giroux carries the puck, challenge him cause him to dump in, beat the slow wingers to the puck, move it back the other way.

Edler got 3 games.
I just called it karma for Hertl.

So your in favor of what, exactly?
- mcefalu

I've been pretty consistent on a couple of things, a few of which have happened:

Sean Couturier needed a scoring winger, and Craig Berube gave him one in Matt Read.

Grossmann/Meszaros needed to be split up, and that happened last game, as well.

I still think they need to add a scoring winger, because I believe Maxime Talbot is better served as a fourth-line player who adds extra value by his ability to kill penalties.

I think we need at least one defenseman, and maybe two, who can skate and handle the puck, pass the puck, at a plus-level -- and personally, the player I would bench is Andrej Meszaros.

Why Meszaros? To me, he looks like Wade Redden right now -- not an awful player who shouldn't be playing hockey, but whose abilities are currently at a level that he simply isn't a better alternative to others -- which is the main reason to ever upgrade a spot.

Edler got 3 games.
I just called it karma for Hertl.
- jmatchett383

Interested to see how many games Kaleta gets. Should be more than 10.

Interested to see how many games Kaleta gets. Should be more than 10.


- PLindbergh31

The Sabres fans will tell you that it was a clean hit to the shoulder, nothing serious. At least we all agree (usually) when a player does something suspension-worthy that it's suspension-worthy.

And so far D hasn't been the problem with this team, but scoring has definitely been an issue, so I'd keep Streit in for now.
- wolfhounds

Let's be honest... the goaltenders have been bailing out the horrendous team D. If Mason and Emery aren't eating all that rubber, our start would look more like the Rangers' (0-6 and 2-9).

As for the theory that Streit will fuel the transition game at ES, it's important to point out that the initial step of the transition game is actually getting the puck back from the other team. Streit, unfortunately, is not very good in this regard. Unlike the big slow guys we have back there, he's not strong enough to separate attackers from the puck, or tie a guy up and wait for help. And unlike a Coburn or a Gus, he's not fast/quick enough to intercept pucks shot around the boards, able to keep up w/ the cycle game, or close the gap on guys consistently. It's like a mini PP for the other team when he's on the ice.

Gus would be a strong improvement at ES, IMO.

And you would still have Streit on the bench for o-zone draws, trailing by a goal situations, PP, etc.

The Sabres fans will tell you that it was a clean hit to the shoulder, nothing serious. At least we all agree (usually) when a player does something suspension-worthy that it's suspension-worthy.
- jmatchett383

It's nice knowing that our 'rat' actually hits clean (99% of the time) on his way to destroying the other team.

Let's be honest... the goaltenders have been bailing out the horrendous team D. If Mason and Emery aren't eating all that rubber, our start would look more like the Rangers' (0-6 and 2-9).

As for the theory that Streit will fuel the transition game at ES, it's important to point out that the initial step of the transition game is actually getting the puck back from the other team. Streit, unfortunately, is not very good in this regard. Unlike the big slow guys we have back there, he's not strong enough to separate attackers from the puck, or tie a guy up and wait for help. And unlike a Coburn or a Gus, he's not fast/quick enough to intercept pucks shot around the boards, able to keep up w/ the cycle game, or close the gap on guys consistently. It's like a mini PP for the other team when he's on the ice.

Gus would be a strong improvement at ES, IMO.

And you would still have Streit on the bench for o-zone draws, trailing by a goal situations, PP, etc.
- Tomahawk

I'm still not sold on Streit. He brings some good things to the ice, but as you stated, he needs to have the puck to do them. I don't think he's as bad as he's been painted (an offensive defenseman on a bad defensive team is going to look terrible), but as of right now, he needs to bear down a bit harder. Hopefully it works itself out.

It's nice knowing that our 'rat' actually hits clean (99% of the time) on his way to destroying the other team.
- Tomahawk

He really does, which is amazing. Even on the plays where it's a penalty, it's usually called based on result, not the actual hit.

To be honest, I'm not for or against any line combos right now, because I'm absolutely willing to give Craig Berube's system a chance to work. Negadelphia doesn't apply there.

But not to the exclusion of the obvious: The defense does have a bad mix. It is too slow and needs better puck skills. However many players have to be swapped out to improve that, or whoever has to be swapped out, I'm totally fine with. Because at some point, everyone needs to "zoom out."

We aren't the defending champions of anything. So there's room for improvement, better players, more skill/speed/hockey IQ, whatever we're missing, until we are.
- AllInForFlyers

I feel like I am jumping into a conversation that has been ongoing for a few days and probably have missed many of the things said.

Maybe it is stating the obvious that they never filled their biggest need, getting a top defenseman on the team. Which would allow the surplus of the number 4/5/6 defenseman types they have now back into playing their proper roles/minutes.

But the trade to acquire one wasn't there, not at least without giving up too much future. At least from what I could see from the past off season.

So now what?

Be patient with the young forwards, and hope someone from their prospect pool of D men turns out to be the guy?

Wait for next season's FA crop and see what you can get and overpay for as per usual?

Or trade one of the young forwards and likely overpay in trade for an aging D man, cause no one is trading away their Pietrangelos or OELs to us in this lifetime.

Not sure what you want them to do.
Sorry again if I missed things from the past few days, I've been gone.

We are going to win tonight, boys. I can feel it.

I feel like I am jumping into a conversation that has been ongoing for a few days and probably have missed many of the things said.

Maybe it is stating the obvious that they never filled their biggest need, getting a top defenseman on the team. Which would allow the surplus of the number 4/5/6 defenseman types they have now back into playing their proper roles/minutes.

But the trade to acquire one wasn't there, not at least without giving up too much future. At least from what I could see from the past off season.

So now what?

Be patient with the young forwards, and hope someone from their prospect pool of D men turns out to be the guy?

Wait for next season's FA crop and see what you can get and overpay for as per usual?

Or trade one of the young forwards and likely overpay in trade for an aging D man, cause no one is trading away their Pietrangelos or OELs to us in this lifetime.

Not sure what you want them to do.
Sorry again if I missed things from the past few days, I've been gone.
- Marc D

The only way to acquire a real top elite defenseman (that was a fun conversation yesterday, defining that) right now is to gut your team and/or prospect pool. Teams realize that those players are #1 commodity and are in no hurry to unload them. If they Flyers feel that they need that type of player, the only rational way that I see is to hope one comes out in UFA, or to develop one yourself.

We are going to win tonight, boys. I can feel it.
- idiotsallofu

I'd like to see Giroux put up 1G/2A tonight to break out a little. I also would like to see a full 60 minute effort from 18 Flyers' skaters and 1 Flyers' goalie.

The only way to acquire a real top elite defenseman (that was a fun conversation yesterday, defining that) right now is to gut your team and/or prospect pool. Teams realize that those players are #1 commodity and are in no hurry to unload them. If they Flyers feel that they need that type of player, the only rational way that I see is to hope one comes out in UFA, or to develop one yourself.
- jmatchett383

Yeah, I want to punch him in the face, too, but this chump may be our only hope for next year...

I'd like to see Giroux put up 1G/2A tonight to break out a little. I also would like to see a full 60 minute effort from 18 Flyers' skaters and 1 Flyers' goalie.
- jmatchett383

p sure we'd get a LOT of too many men calls if everybody played 60 minutes

Yeah, I want to punch him in the face, too, but this chump may be our only hope for next year...


- Tomahawk

The thought of having him and Hartnell on the same team is priceless.

p sure we'd get a LOT of too many men calls if everybody played 60 minutes
- BulliesPhan87

Gotta get practice for the PK somehow.

Yeah, I want to punch him in the face, too, but this chump may be our only hope for next year...


- Tomahawk

ugh


cant we just overpay for Subban in 2 years??

Yeah, I want to punch him in the face, too, but this chump may be our only hope for next year...


- Tomahawk

With the money freed up from Timonen (assuming he retires) and Mez leaving, if Toronto lets him walk, he's a possibility. But I don't think he's the answer. Just something seems lacking in him at times.

However, if Timonen does leave, we need to replace our former captain void, so he'd fit the bill.

The thought of having him and Hartnell on the same team is priceless.
- Marc D

The thought of possibly having him and NOT Hartnell on the team makes me absolutely giddy.

I feel like I am jumping into a conversation that has been ongoing for a few days and probably have missed many of the things said.

Maybe it is stating the obvious that they never filled their biggest need, getting a top defenseman on the team. Which would allow the surplus of the number 4/5/6 defenseman types they have now back into playing their proper roles/minutes.

But the trade to acquire one wasn't there, not at least without giving up too much future. At least from what I could see from the past off season.

So now what?

Be patient with the young forwards, and hope someone from their prospect pool of D men turns out to be the guy?

Wait for next season's FA crop and see what you can get and overpay for as per usual?

Or trade one of the young forwards and likely overpay in trade for an aging D man, cause no one is trading away their Pietrangelos or OELs to us in this lifetime.

Not sure what you want them to do.
Sorry again if I missed things from the past few days, I've been gone.
- Marc D

Ha! I just posted what I wanted them to do -- and for now, giving Couturier a winger and splitting up Grossmann/Meszaros might be all they should do, at this exact moment, until they see what this thing looks like with Berube's system in place.

But my thing is this: I have followed this team for decades, like a number of us. But I also follow the sport of hockey. And that informs my opinions about this team.

I don't dislike any player on this team. But I'm not blinded to the fact that this team has weaknesses that can and should be addressed.

Do I want them to gut the youth? Not necessarily. Do I want them to stand pat?

No. Absolutely not. Because this roster, as constructed, isn't good enough.

There are trades out there that could be made that would change the functionality of this roster -- for instance, if, and I repeat IF, the Flyers and Toronto wanted to, they could trade J-M Liles for Nicklas Grossman, have roughly the same cap hits and years left on each deal, but exchange two totally different kinds of players.

Now, before the usual suspects jump all over that, I'm not saying to do that. But what I am saying is that there are trades out there that can improve this team, improve the functionality of this roster, as a whole. And that we shouldn't be so loyal to any one player that "we like" to the exclusion of making that deal -- because to be honest, I think two "hockey trades" makes this team look a hell of a lot better than it is currently.

The thought of possibly having him and NOT Hartnell on the team makes me absolutely giddy.
- Tomahawk

Hartnell's not going anywhere any time soon. Sorry.

Hartnell's not going anywhere any time soon. Sorry.
- jmatchett383

Killjoy!