The cores are/were fine... it's all the extraneous (and expensive) junk they keep throwing into the mix to rush the process forward that's been the problem.
- Tomahawk

They haven't signed any junk. And it's not to rush the process, it's to support it. You need a mix of veterans around the young players. You want to try and create a winning environment and have some veteran leadership to help in the development of a team.

Out of here boys, but realistically we talk about what we see happening, or want to. Nutter's wish list:

Continue to use the year as an evaluation for every player. If a good deal comes along, a fair deal, do not hesitate to make it. I would prefer however to wait until the deadline.

My keepers heading into the future, and the only untouchables include Giroux, Read, Mason and Voracek.

Now as for trades:
1. The following groups of players should not be here by the team the team is ready to establish itself as a consistent elite team, and should be dealt for talented youth/picks at the deadline IF a deal is right :
-Hartnell
-Coburn
-Timonen
-Grossmann
-Talbot

2. There are pieces on this apparent young core that management has to see if they fit into the long term plans. I no longer consider bSchenn, Simmonds and Coots as untouchable. If the right deal comes along, I don't hesitate to make a trade. It is a big year for them.


3. Its clear what this team needs. They need more talent on that D, and young talent, which unfortunately you may have to use the draft to get. They also need more elite talent, which I think is painfully obvious.

They have to more than anything get moving in the right direction, because organizationally they have been a headless chicken for a while now. Identify a solid young core, add pieces to it, and build for the future not hindering yourself with overpaying for over-the-hill veterans.
- flyer_nutter

Too early to decide that Mason is a keeper, looks like he is ready to implode to me.

who do we target in the draft? forward or defense
colorado is doing just fine with a bunch of talented forwards like duchene mackinnon parenteau etc
- 2Real

That's the thing with Colorado.

We can continue to say that these guys are young, but how is it that other teams continue to find youth that excels?

Colorado tanked for years, somewhat voluntarily. They got some top tier talent out of it, and its paying off. The Flyers may end up following the same path, but being forced down it.

I will say, that I think a large part of the current core, while good players. Are overrated. Namely, Coots, bSchenn and Simmonds. If that's a big part of the future I have my doubts. More than anything in this league you need a solid core to build around. Look at Chicago for example. I question the current level of talent with the one the Flyers are putting their eggs in.

he is, but i've also heard about certain superstar players "thinking the game" ahead of everyone else. seeing the ice differently. anticpating differently. etc. maybe that just doesn't translate well into being a good coach, but being a good coach is more about being just and X&O/sytems guy.
- hammarby31

Gretzky was just so much smarter than everyone. Hard to teach that, or teach intuition and anticipation. It is more than just X's and O's, but the idea is that the players who have to work harder to keep playing can hopefully help the players they coach aspire the same way due to their history and experiences.

That's the thing with Colorado.

We can continue to say that these guys are young, but how is it that other teams continue to find youth that excels?

Colorado tanked for years, somewhat voluntarily. They got some top tier talent out of it, and its paying off. The Flyers may end up following the same path, but being forced down it.

I will say, that I think a large part of the current core, while good players. Are overrated. Namely, Coots, bSchenn and Simmonds. If that's a big part of the future I have my doubts. More than anything in this league you need a solid core to build around. Look at Chicago for example. I question the current level of talent with the one the Flyers are putting their eggs in.
- flyer_nutter

"I'm not looking for the best players, Craig. I'm looking for the right ones."

That's the thing with Colorado.

We can continue to say that these guys are young, but how is it that other teams continue to find youth that excels?

Colorado tanked for years, somewhat voluntarily. They got some top tier talent out of it, and its paying off. The Flyers may end up following the same path, but being forced down it.

I will say, that I think a large part of the current core, while good players. Are overrated. Namely, Coots, bSchenn and Simmonds. If that's a big part of the future I have my doubts. More than anything in this league you need a solid core to build around. Look at Chicago for example. I question the current level of talent with the one the Flyers are putting their eggs in.
- flyer_nutter

yea but lets say another duchene is available at the draft vs a hedman
who do you take?
hedman was supposed to be this stud dman and well yea he's nothing special

he is, but i've also heard about certain superstar players "thinking the game" ahead of everyone else. seeing the ice differently. anticpating differently. etc. maybe that just doesn't translate well into being a good coach, but being a good coach is more about being just and X&O/sytems guy.
- hammarby31

my whole point was that I am not going to judge Berube based on how he was as a player. its been, what, 10 years since he retired? I have no opinion one way or another. I will let time form my opinion

You have to also put guys in a position to succeed and maximize their production... they did it with Giroux, by giving him the 1C ball and letting him run with it... but they didn't do that with any of the other core players.

Why rush to extend Hartnell if you've already got a younger (and arguably more consistent, and mentally astute) version in Simmonds?

Why bring in Vinny and push Schenn out of position (surprise, he looks better in the middle, again), and watch Couturier continue to languish on the 3rd-line with a rotating cast of wingers who can't score?

Why bring in Streit to push Gus out of the lineup after they just saw him playing like a champ at the WC's and at the end of the season?

If they're not busy burning all that cash on retaining/acquiring the best-players-available, they might actually have had enough money to afford patience with their core players (Hello Bob, JVR) and address their true needs (#1 Dman).
- Tomahawk

After last season, I honestly thought they were going to be looking for two Top 9 forwards -- two left wingers, to play with Schenn and Couturier. I knew they'd acquire another puck mover.

I don't think they thought they wouldn't be able to move Meszaros OR Grossmann. And they clearly didn't like any of the forwards out there in either trade or free agency, other than Lecavalier. So they brought him in -- probably not what I would have done, but at the same time, he hasn't been the problem. He's actually played well.

But here's the thing: They knew they needed another forward, in addition to Lecavalier, because they were sniffing around Daniel Cleary. They absolutely knew they needed another guy. They just didn't get anybody. And that has hurt them.

They needed to play Streit AND Gus. They still need another forward who can score, so Max Talbot can be on the fourth line and so that line can actually contribute.

Should they have traded JVR? If you question his heart, think he might do it somewhere else but isn't going to do it for you, then yeah. Should they have gotten more? Maybe so, but if they liked Luke Schenn, maybe they felt they got enough.

So on and so forth with this team -- but we can't ignore where we are now, just based on what we've done.

Where we are now is dangerous. Because not only are the players that should be scoring and leading this team not doing that, it doesn't even seem like they can.

That's the concern. Right now, they are playing like a 1-6 team that only one once in the preaseason AND missed the playoffs last year. And that has to concern anybody who is a fan of the franchise, because that means you're on a path that means more misery, not less, is on deck.

yea but lets say another duchene is available at the draft vs a hedman
who do you take?
hedman was supposed to be this stud dman and well yea he's nothing special
- 2Real

Haha last thing.

It depends on the player. I wouldn't take a guy solely on positional need, but would consider it to a degree based on what a poophole they are in regarding the defense.

A good example is last draft. I'd be taking Jones first overall and not looking back. If its Hedman or Duschene, yes I take Duschene.

yea but lets say another duchene is available at the draft vs a hedman
who do you take?
hedman was supposed to be this stud dman and well yea he's nothing special
- 2Real

You trade the #1 pick for the #2 plus and take Hedman.

I can't help but wonder how much rope Holmgren has at this point.

Someone earlier suggested he could be gone if they lose to the Pens this week.

I doubt that, but I wonder if they are still kind of floundering around Thanksgiving if Homer will even make it to Christmas.
- johndewar

It wouldn't surprise me. The clock is definitely ticking.

everything will be fine when the team wins 7 out of its last 10
- vejim

That's the thing with Colorado.

We can continue to say that these guys are young, but how is it that other teams continue to find youth that excels?

Colorado tanked for years, somewhat voluntarily. They got some top tier talent out of it, and its paying off. The Flyers may end up following the same path, but being forced down it.

I will say, that I think a large part of the current core, while good players. Are overrated. Namely, Coots, bSchenn and Simmonds. If that's a big part of the future I have my doubts. More than anything in this league you need a solid core to build around. Look at Chicago for example. I question the current level of talent with the one the Flyers are putting their eggs in.
- flyer_nutter

Couts may turn into a superb shut down third line center, scoring 40 points and neutralizing the other team's top lines.

Nothing wrong with that.

He may never be Toews/Bergeron, or even Staal.

But that type of player is valuable to a Cup winning team.

You trade the #1 pick for the #2 plus and take Hedman.
- jmatchett383

what if the #1 will add more value to the team in the long run
i don't think hedman will add nearly the same value

I listened to the game on 97.5 last night and Chris Therien brought up an interesting point. He said that with the implementation of a new system, you tend to find players thinking about the system too much instead of making instinctive plays on the ice. I honestly think a good deal of the Flyers offensive issues right now are related to that in some way. You see some players working hard but there is still an ounce of hesitation with their puck decisions and that seems to allow the opposition to remain one step closer defensively.


- mcefalu

That sounds like a fair and reasonable analysis. I expect there to be some "growing pains" if you will with a new coach. That's why I'm fine with giving them 10 games to get their ish together before making any moves.

Were I in charge and things are still ugly after game 13, look out!

Which I have seen raised here by other posters, and I am starting to lean that way myself.

Giroux, and Voracek are good players. Lets not kid ourselves with Read though. He isn't a top line player and isn't going to carry a line.

I really question the other pieces of this apparent young core. Namely Coots, bSchenn and Simmonds.

On D its just even a question. The closest thing to a core guy is Luke Schenn.
- flyer_nutter

Read has never been considered to be a first line player, or a player that can carry a line. Does that mean that he's not a good player? What he is considered is a valuable and versatile player who can play up and down the lineup. He brings speed to the lineup, as well as 2 way ability. So how is anybody kidding themselves when looking at Read? Unfortunately, he's one of the players who isn't producing offensively right now.

That sounds like a fair and reasonable analysis. I expect there to be some "growing pains" if you will with a new coach. That's why I'm fine with giving them 10 games to get their ish together before making any moves.

Were I in charge and things are still ugly after game 13, look out!
- Scoob

they were terrible under Lavy after he took over.

That sounds like a fair and reasonable analysis. I expect there to be some "growing pains" if you will with a new coach. That's why I'm fine with giving them 10 games to get their ish together before making any moves.

Were I in charge and things are still ugly after game 13, look out!
- Scoob

why not be patient and let things pan out
the sharks did it now they have players like thornton and marleau as 1st line vets then have great players like couture pavelski and hertl to round out the bottom

Couts may turn into a superb shut down third line center, scoring 40 points and neutralizing the other team's top lines.

Nothing wrong with that.

He may never be Toews/Bergeron, or even Staal.

But that type of player is valuable to a Cup winning team.
- Marc D

I look at Ryan Kesler's progression, the time it took for him to break out offensively... he was 24-25 before anybody in Vancouver even gave him a second thought as a top-six forward. Remember how ridiculous everybody thought Clarkie's offer sheet was?

Couturier can do other things besides put up points to help the team, and he's on an uber-affordable contract. Trading him now for anything less than a better player of the same age would be grossly irresponsible.

That sounds like a fair and reasonable analysis. I expect there to be some "growing pains" if you will with a new coach. That's why I'm fine with giving them 10 games to get their ish together before making any moves.

Were I in charge and things are still ugly after game 13, look out!
- Scoob

I agree. I'm hoping the new system is what the issue is and that in a few games they will gradually start to score more, although the counter point to that is they had the same problem scoring under Lavy's system, which they should have known instinctively.

Voracek seemed pretty honest in his assessment last night after the game when he said that these days there is very little resolve and confidence that the Flyers have the ability to rally when down by a goal or two. If you look at the Flyers losses so far this season, most of them are only by one goal. It's not like they are getting blown out by the opposition.

There does seem to be this state of hopelessness in the locker room that the team can't pull themselves together in the 3rd period and will themselves a win here and there

"I'm not looking for the best players, Craig. I'm looking for the right ones."
- jmatchett383

what if the #1 will add more value to the team in the long run
i don't think hedman will add nearly the same value
- 2Real

That's why I said the #2 pick plus. You'd hope that the plus evens the trade out.

Take a look at last year's draft. If you talked to 5 people, you would have gotten 3 different answers as to who the #1 pick would be. And one of the "sure" top-3 bets ended up going #4. So if you thought Jones was #1 overall, you could have traded back to 4th and gotten him plus other assets.

That was a special case with no clear-cut #1, but still, you hope and attractive enough package comes along with another high pick if you value a player more than the "consensus" top pick.

I look at Ryan Kesler's progression, the time it took for him to break out offensively... he was 24-25 before anybody in Vancouver even gave him a second thought as a top-six forward. Remember how ridiculous everybody thought Clarkie's offer sheet was?

Couturier can do other things besides put up points to help the team, and he's on an uber-affordable contract. Trading him now for anything less than a better player of the same age would be grossly irresponsible.
- Tomahawk

Well said!

Re: Lapierre and Kaleta

I blame all of this on the NHL. Both of these punks who are repeat offenders and known dirty players should be suspended for the rest of the season without pay. Furthermore it should be made clear to them that one more incident like this will result in a lifetime ban.

I guarantee you that these type of hits would immediately stop.

I look at Ryan Kesler's progression, the time it took for him to break out offensively... he was 24-25 before anybody in Vancouver even gave him a second thought as a top-six forward. Remember how ridiculous everybody thought Clarkie's offer sheet was?

Couturier can do other things besides put up points to help the team, and he's on an uber-affordable contract. Trading him now for anything less than a better player of the same age would be grossly irresponsible.
- Tomahawk

BUT HE DOESN'T SCORE! HE'S A BUST!