Several teams have good puck possession 4th lines. Boston is probably the best example. They get the puck, get it in deep and work the puck around/cycle. Not generally ones that generate a high % of offense, but definitely players capable of gaining and sustaining puck possession.
- jmatchett383

Boston is a 4th line that comes to mind as a very good 4th line. But that comes with a price. Players like Campbell, Thornton, Paille all have Cap hits over 1M each.

I'm not saying Raffl isn't an NHL player, my point is I think we all agree he's not a first line type talent.
- PLindbergh31

Ideally he should be in ADK right now -- wouldn't it have been nice to have an Etem or Palmieri to call up instead?

So far, from what I've seen, Raffl deserves to be in the lineup.
- wolfhounds

I think so, too. Also think he's got good two-way instincts (although he's had a turnover or two).

I fully expected him to have some NHL scoring difficulties but no problem scoring inn AHL, ala Mika Pyorala. The things that Raffl has in his favor over Pyorala are that he's four years younger than Pyorala was when he came over and is also physically stronger and a bit grittier.

There IS a bit of NHL offensive upside in Raffl but it's going to take time and patience to bring that out. The nice assist on Lecavalier's second goal the other night was a flash of his skills. He'll never be a big scorer at this level, however.

I don't think it's a knock on Raffl to point out that it would be better to have a more experienced talent on that line. Raffl's been in North America for roughly 5 minutes.

Raffl's done some good stuff so far and that's great. I look forward to watching him grow as a player.

But the fact that he's on the first line right now speaks to a talent deficit, IMO.
- johndewar

I don't know about talent deficit. It's more of a balance deficit. Raffl is playing on that line because the overall team lacks speed and two-way play among the forwards.

I think the forwards as a whole were poorly put together. The team needed a winger to play with Giroux, not a 2nd line center this offseason. Thankfully, Vinny may end up being that winger for Giroux.

Boston is a 4th line that comes to mind as a very good 4th line. But that comes with a price. Players like Campbell, Thornton, Paille all have Cap hits over 1M each.
- MJL

To be fair, so did Shelley

I'm not saying Raffl isn't an NHL player, my point is I think we all agree he's not a first line type talent.
- PLindbergh31

Agreed. I like what I've seen of him so far, but our top line is no Legion of Doom...

Yeah. How is Rinaldo among the leaders in hits per minute? Is he running around hitting guys when the Flyers have control of the puck?
- PLindbergh31

The new Hockeybuzz mantra. If a player has a high number of hits, then it means that his team automatically doesn't have the puck enough. There are many players on NHL teams that rack up high hit totals such as Dustin Brown. Doesn't mean they never have the puck.

Boston is a 4th line that comes to mind as a very good 4th line. But that comes with a price. Players like Campbell, Thornton, Paille all have Cap hits over 1M each.
- MJL

At this point, I'd be content with a 4th-line that just doesn't routinely sabotage the team's chance of winning.

I don't know about talent deficit. It's more of a balance deficit. Raffl is playing on that line because the overall team lacks speed and two-way play among the forwards.

I think the forwards as a whole were poorly put together. The team needed a winger to play with Giroux, not a 2nd line center this offseason. Thankfully, Vinny may end up being that winger for Giroux.
- PhillySportsGuy

Actually, I agree with this, and I think we're saying the same thing.

The new Hockeybuzz mantra. If a player has a high number of hits, then it means that his team automatically doesn't have the puck enough. There are many players on NHL teams that rack up high hit totals such as Dustin Brown. Doesn't mean they never have the puck.
- MJL

Comparing Rinaldo to Dustin Brown now. Sound logic.

The new Hockeybuzz mantra. If a player has a high number of hits, then it means that his team automatically doesn't have the puck enough. There are many players on NHL teams that rack up high hit totals such as Dustin Brown. Doesn't mean they never have the puck.
- MJL

Many of Rinaldo's hits are due to his forechecking.

Hertl was one of the highest ranked prospects in the world before this season... you need to put the pipe down.
- Tomahawk

And Raffl was the best player outside the NHL-KHL system. DOPITA!

Many of Rinaldo's hits are due to his forechecking.
- PhillySportsGuy

When you're forechecking, you don't have the puck.

Exactly, and in Maroon's case, the first or second line is the ONLY place you can play him. His only real asset is his combo of hands and size. He's a below-average skater, below average defensively and has never been in great condition (although he's improved that quite a bit over the years).
- bmeltzer

Bill, Do you see this situation similar to Tye McGinn?
Will he have to play on a top six spot to play?

I guess it may be too early to say, he could always get better in his two way play, and he seems to be an above average skater.

Yeah. How is Rinaldo among the leaders in hits per minute? Is he running around hitting guys when the Flyers have control of the puck?
- PLindbergh31

Yeah I have to admit I don't agree with this at all. I know Rinaldo needs to get that discipline back like he had last year and I do believe he can. I love that he hits everything. Some hits are obviously more important than others. For instance the ones when you create the turnover when you separate a player from the puck is different than one when the puck is already gone and you are just completing your check. I don't understand why all of a sudden a hit has become meaningless to people. I really don't agree

When you're forechecking, you don't have the puck.
- Tomahawk

Would you rather see Rinaldo try to puckhandle his way into the zone or dump and chase?

If the Oilers, for some unexplained reason, are willing to just trade Coburn for Nurse straight up, I will DRIVE Coburn to Edmonton.
- PhillySportsGuy

they might hire you for their GM because if they do that deal, they will need a new one

I don't think it's a knock on Raffl to point out that it would be better to have a more experienced talent on that line. Raffl's been in North America for roughly 5 minutes.

Raffl's done some good stuff so far and that's great. I look forward to watching him grow as a player.

But the fact that he's on the first line right now speaks to a talent deficit, IMO.
- johndewar

So you mean now that Raffl is on the top line, I'm no longer crazy for saying we need a top line winger to pair with Giroux?

Would you rather see Rinaldo try to puckhandle his way into the zone or dump and chase?
- PhillySportsGuy

ooh oooh ooh dump and chase. Dump and chase.

Would you rather see Rinaldo try to puckhandle his way into the zone or dump and chase?
- PhillySportsGuy

Would you rather see Rinaldo in the penalty box twice a game, or in a coat and tie?

Yeah I have to admit I don't agree with this at all. I know Rinaldo needs to get that discipline back like he had last year and I do believe he can. I love that he hits everything. Some hits are obviously more important than others. For instance the ones when you create the turnover when you separate a player from the puck is different than one when the puck is already gone and you are just completing your check. I don't understand why all of a sudden a hit has become meaningless to people. I really don't agree
- nastyflyergirl

I have seen Rinaldo's hitting force turnovers. Players just don't like to be hit by him.

I really don't have a problem with Rinaldo as a 4th line player. I think he adds much more to the team than takes away.

Comparing Rinaldo to Dustin Brown now. Sound logic.
- PLindbergh31

One of Eric Lindros' biggest strengths was the frequency and magnitude of his checks. He was always among the team leaders in hits. I think his line had the puck enough.

And no, no one's comparing Rinaldo to Brown or Lindros. Some players just hit a lot, and take every chance they get.

Take a guy like Nik Zherdev. For the most part, he never liked to hit. So, even if his line NEVER had the puck, he would have a low # of hits. Using the logic here, no hits = puck possession. Rinaldo and his line don't have the puck as often as I'd like, but amount of hits is not a direct correlation between puck possession.

Yeah I have to admit I don't agree with this at all. I know Rinaldo needs to get that discipline back like he had last year and I do believe he can. I love that he hits everything. Some hits are obviously more important than others. For instance the ones when you create the turnover when you separate a player from the puck is different than one when the puck is already gone and you are just completing your check. I don't understand why all of a sudden a hit has become meaningless to people. I really don't agree
- nastyflyergirl

I don't think the hits are meaningless at all. But he negates them by taking dumb penalties. He was improving in that area, but he has regressed. Can't have a guy who plays 5 minutes a game taking a few minor penalties. It totally defeats the purpose of dressing him.

Would you rather see Rinaldo in the penalty box twice a game, or in a coat and tie?
- PLindbergh31

He's drawn more penalties than he's taken. He's had a rough stretch the last couple games, but over the last two seasons, he's been a solid 4th line player for this team. You need to look at more than just a few games.

Would you rather see Rinaldo try to puckhandle his way into the zone or dump and chase?
- PhillySportsGuy

He should be stickhandling a la Carcillo vs. Toronto on every shift. Dumping the puck into a corner and punishing the defenseman with a hit is a sign that you are terrible offensively.