Sorry D....but you have no way of knowing this.

Anyway, can't believe I got sucked into this arguement.

The Leafs are 8-4...I'm happy about it.
- stormeyAlterEgo

Hey, as long as the leafs keep winning who cares.

I'm just trying to say Grabo is better than Bozak.

yeah so he can pass it to kulemin so he can do nothing with it.

oh kulemin is off his line, so he has macarthur - who could score if he had 3 seconds to shoot the puck...or maybe one of the other all stars...mike brown, frattin, some other plugs im forgetting im sure.
- big_dion

His tendency to hold onto the puck made playing on top two lines a problem. His price tag made playing on the third line a problem. For me, it's not about Grabo vs Bozak, it's Grabo vs Bolland and I'd rather have Bolland.

His tendency to hold onto the puck made playing on top two lines a problem. His price tag made playing on the third line a problem. For me, it's not about Grabo vs Bozak, it's Grabo vs Bolland and I'd rather have Bolland.
- Canada Cup

That's a whole different argument, but I agree with you there.

But.... but... when a player gets the puck on his stick, his first instincts are to think of his corsi stats! Didnt you know! The corsi damnit! Putting the (frank)ing puck in the net and winning games is over rated these days apparently.
- TonkaPhaneuf

Common guys...do you even know what you're arguing? People who have problems with advanced stats either don't understand their use, or fail to accept them as a way to analyze certain aspects of the game.

What you said above is like me saying "Do you think players look to pass to X's and O's on a drawing board when they get the puck?"

Stats are used to explain and understand certain parts of the game and where improvements can be made by coaches or GMs. A coach will notice patterns developing and make changes in order to improve their odds of winning games, and those who are involved in analyzing such patterns use stats to support them.

"When we ice Colin in offensive zone starts, 70% of the time he's able to keep the puck in the offensive zone and 65% of the time it ends in a high quality scoring opportunity, so we should use Colin in those situations."

Advanced stats aren't a "How to guide" to the NHL, its nothing more than picking up on patterns and being able to analyze areas of weakness or strength from players. They shouldn't be used as sole indicators of skill for players or teams...not at all.

so basically then...buying out Grabo, and resigning Bozak, netted the Leafs UFA Clarkson, and resigning Kessel long term. Was that not worth it, regardless of who's better between Grabo/Bozak?
- 10baci

all speculation.

if leafs let bozak go, do you really think kessel would say no to 64 million over 8 years...i dont think so.

clarkson is 5.5 mil, bozak is 4.2 and we still have liles on the books.

buyout liles
dont resign bozak

then you have clarkson, grabovski and some money left over.

grabo 5.5
clarkson 5.5
liles buyout -3.875

bozak 4.2
liles 3.875
clarkson 5.5

His tendency to hold onto the puck made playing on top two lines a problem. His price tag made playing on the third line a problem. For me, it's not about Grabo vs Bozak, it's Grabo vs Bolland and I'd rather have Bolland.
- Canada Cup

again, bolland is guy who can do it all, 2nd/3rd line center, D or O.

grabo is an offense first kind of guy, and did quite well until RC came along and ruined his worth.

signed the year before for 5.5, then not able to get a 7th rounder for the guy the year after...you kno what that is?

horrible coaching/GM work.

This entire Bozak vs. Grabo debate


Yawn!!
- faceto27

Yep...Both of them should have been gone last summer..

lol well thats where you are wrong my friend. - i dont care to get into it, but il tell you 100% there was none, if anything, the guys really liked grabo, and they liked having him on the team.

a guy who could score, would make a pass and take the hit (something bozak will never do, or phil for that matter).

he faught chris neil once, he bit patches, he took headshots from chara and scored game winners...trust me on this, the boys liked grabo.
- big_dion

He also fought his teammates in practice (Beauchemin and Blake with the Leafs and Koivu with the Habs).

Mark Spector ‏@SportsnetSpec 25m

This from Flames: M. Giordano, broken ankle – 6-8 weeks; L. Stempniak, broken foot – week to week Breen, abdominal wall strain – day to day
- faceto27

Liles might end up playing tomorrow night too...interesting.

all speculation.

if leafs let bozak go, do you really think kessel would say no to 64 million over 8 years...i dont think so.

.
- big_dion

we will never know

u know what that is bigzby, the easy way out.

clarkson is a winger

grabovski is a center

clarkson will be lucky if he ever gets 50 points.

grabo will be around 60 this year.

there is way more to it than them having the same salary...
- big_dion

We just didn't need the guy anymore. If your mind is made up that Grabo > Bozak, why even have the discussion.

IMO the team is constructed, and coached in such a way that on the TML Bozak > Grabo and that is in the end all that matters to me.

u know what that is bigzby, the easy way out.

clarkson is a winger

grabovski is a center

clarkson will be lucky if he ever gets 50 points.

grabo will be around 60 this year.

there is way more to it than them having the same salary...
- big_dion

Yeah, but in his defense, the Leafs didnt need an upgrade in offense, they needed an upgrade in a gritty top 6 guy like Clarkson.

He also fought his teammates in practice (Beauchemin and Blake with the Leafs and Koivu with the Habs).
- MrBen

guess what, thats usually a good thing.

beachemin was doing nothing, blake was doing nothing, and koivu was defending the Dbag brothers.

Common guys...do you even know what you're arguing? People who have problems with advanced stats either don't understand their use, or fail to accept them as a way to analyze certain aspects of the game.

What you said above is like me saying "Do you think players look to pass to X's and O's on a drawing board when they get the puck?"

Stats are used to explain and understand certain parts of the game and where improvements can be made by coaches or GMs. A coach will notice patterns developing and make changes in order to improve their odds of winning games, and those who are involved in analyzing such patterns use stats to support them.

"When we ice Colin in offensive zone starts, 70% of the time he's able to keep the puck in the offensive zone and 65% of the time it ends in a high quality scoring opportunity, so we should use Colin in those situations."

Advanced stats aren't a "How to guide" to the NHL, its nothing more than picking up on patterns and being able to analyze areas of weakness or strength from players. They shouldn't be used as sole indicators of skill for players or teams...not at all.
- Colin Dambrauskas

That was my argument the whole time. Too many come in here and throw corsi around as the deciding factor as to why Mr X isnt worth X amount of dollars.
Sure it has some relevance to the coaching staff, but as players i doubt they put too much weight into their own corsi numbers.

Yeah, but in his defense, the Leafs didnt need an upgrade in offense, they needed an upgrade in a gritty top 6 guy like Clarkson.
- Colin Dambrauskas

exactly why you get clarkson.

bolland can do PK work so that makes bozak easier to be gone.

bolland, mcclemment, JVR, raymond

there is your PKillers.

anyhow its all just blah blah blah now, id take grabo over bozak 110 times out of 100 and thats where it ends for me.

bozak is on the team because he and phil are best friends and hes able to do an OK job.

thats how i feel about it.

That was my argument the whole time. Too many come in here and throw corsi around as the deciding factor as to why Mr X isnt worth X amount of dollars.
Sure it has some relevance to the coaching staff, but as players i doubt they put too much weight into their own corsi numbers.
- TonkaPhaneuf

Of course not, they do as they're told (systemically). Its up to the coaches to know this stuff and the players to...well, play. But players cant improve upon certain areas of their game if no one pays attention to it. An NHL team will use every bit of information at their disposal to improve upon their chances of winning, including analyzing all types of stats and realizing that player X and Y are better in certain situations than players W and Z.

guess what, thats usually a good thing.

beachemin was doing nothing, blake was doing nothing, and koivu was defending the Dbag brothers.
- big_dion

The entire Habs team had turned on him before he left. I don't like the Habs anymore than the next guy but people normally say nice things when a guy leaves.

Kovalev "Don't ask me about him"
Higgins "He's not here anymore. I don't care about him"


Oh well it doesn't matter now. He's the Caps problem and Bozak is ours.
I think the fact that the Leafs couldn't trade him for anything and the fact he stayed on the FA market as long as he did might say something on how he's perceived around the league as well.

I also just want to point out that I was a fan of Grabovski while he was here. I was also totally indifferent about it when he was bought out.

His offensive contributions aren't why he's needed. I don't want to get into an argument about why he's so important to the team though. Those tend to go nowhere.
- Jeffmt

Pylon Phaneuf is not worth anything near that ... the Laffs should sign him ....

Liles might end up playing tomorrow night too...interesting.
- Colin Dambrauskas

Hopefully they leave him there...

Of course not, they do as they're told (systemically). Its up to the coaches to know this stuff and the players to...well, play. But players cant improve upon certain areas of their game if no one pays attention to it. An NHL will use every bit of information at their disposal to improve upon their chances of winning, including analyzing all types of stats and realizing that player X and Y are better in certain situations than players W and Z.
- Colin Dambrauskas

Sure and every teams system is different. I just dont see how corsi numbers can reflect a players worth, which is how many seem to use these stats. To me the advanced stats seem to contribute to the overall team, more so than individual players.

Am I too late for the Grabo vs Ballsack argument...goodtimes

Am I too late for the Grabo vs Ballsack argument...goodtimes


- poohcrumbs

dont worry grabo 1st round KO as usual

Am I too late for the Grabo vs Ballsack argument...goodtimes


- poohcrumbs

Never too late for that... ...Have at it

So with Giordano out for CGY for 6-8, what are the chances they'd be in the market for a Mr. JML to help keep them afloat during a very good start for the Flames?

dont worry grabo 1st round KO as usual
- big_dion

What do the Corsi numbers say?