I've never felt like they were a serious contender in any of these years. Obviously in 2010 they were fortunate to have a lot of breaks go their way, injuries, matchups, etc.

It's nice to make the playoffs, more teams than not make the playoffs in the NHL. The San Diego Chargers have had one losing season since 2003. What do you make of them?
- Just5

They seem to be doing something very disturbing to me.

The Leafs for years thought they were close and made stupid movies. The worst thing you can be is just some mediocre team. Sure there are teams that have a cinderella run, but to rely on "flipping the switch" and purely catching lightning in a bottle is foolish.

For all of the blame that Giroux gets himself. Maybe the (frank)ing organization would have learned after Richards to not put so much pressure on a kid so soon. They did not. For all the pressure G gets, who the hell has stepped up otherwise? An aging LeCavalier?

Would be damn nice if that "potential" superstar magic of Coots and bSchenn actually showed up once in a while. If fan favourite Hartnell actually contributed. If the D could skate, or move the puck, or god forbid hit the net. This organization has become a bit of a joke, and rightfully so.

I've never felt like they were a serious contender in any of these years. Obviously in 2010 they were fortunate to have a lot of breaks go their way, injuries, matchups, etc.

It's nice to make the playoffs, more teams than not make the playoffs in the NHL. The San Diego Chargers have had one losing season since 2003. What do you make of them?
- Just5

They're either the worst good team or the best bad team depending on which side of the fence you're on. However, I don't considering coming back from 3-0, posting 3 shutouts in the ECF, and taking the SC Champs to within 1 OT goal of a Game 7 lucky. They had breaks, yes for sure. But a lot of that team was pure heart and soul combined with players who each had a clearly-defined role.

To me, the Cup is one of those "bucket list" moments. Maybe it's because I was born on the day the Sixers won the 83 championship and all I've ever seen in the 2008 Phillies (and had to miss the parade), but I just need to see a team that I love lift the Stanley Cup before I die. After that, the list is all crossed off (own care, own house, have kid - 1 coming in a week, Flyers win Cup).
- jmatchett383

Let me ask this first. Has the Phillies winning in 2008 made the last few years any easier to watch? Has it made all the crappy years from 1993-2004 all worth it? To me no... it doesnt. There were 10 abysmal years that it was painful to watch the team. There will likely be another 10 painful years before they are good again.

Another question? Do you think the Flyers realistically can go another 40 years without winning a cup? Even by fluke. You will get your cup as long as you lead a semi average life span.

I much rather watch good hockey and be happy after most games then suck for 5-6 years just to maybe win a cup.

They're either the worst good team or the best bad team depending on which side of the fence you're on. However, I don't considering coming back from 3-0, posting 3 shutouts in the ECF, and taking the SC Champs to within 1 OT goal of a Game 7 lucky. They had breaks, yes for sure. But a lot of that team was pure heart and soul combined with players who each had a clearly-defined role.
- jmatchett383

And they thought so much of that team that they basically ripped it up a year later.

Let me ask this first. Has the Phillies winning in 2008 made the last few years any easier to watch? Has it made all the crappy years from 1993-2004 all worth it? To me no... it doesnt. There were 10 abysmal years that it was painful to watch the team. There will likely be another 10 painful years before they are good again.

Another question? Do you think the Flyers realistically can go another 40 years without winning a cup? Even by fluke. You will get your cup as long as you lead a semi average life span.

I much rather watch good hockey and be happy after most games then suck for 5-6 years just to maybe win a cup.
- youarewrong

But they won it. And they came a lot closer to winning 2 than the Flyers winning 1. Being an adult and understanding what direction an organization is taking, I can live with that through some dark years. Especially if there is a young nucleus working to build something, with management in step with coaching, rather than seeing a team of over the hill old expensive vets scratch and claw to maybe make the second round of the playoffs. Year after year after year.

Let me ask this first. Has the Phillies winning in 2008 made the last few years any easier to watch? Has it made all the crappy years from 1993-2004 all worth it? To me no... it doesnt. There were 10 abysmal years that it was painful to watch the team. There will likely be another 10 painful years before they are good again.
- youarewrong

Yes. Believe it or not, the players from that 2008 team get a lifetime pass for me. Jimmy Rollins and his lack of hustle, Ryan Howard's unusable legs, and Chase Utley's declining physically appealing hairstyle are all okay in my books because they got me one. Would I prefer them to win more and am I upset when they lose? Abolsutely. But yes, the core of that 2008 team are players I can never say, in the end, that I'm upset with.

Another question? Do you think the Flyers realistically can go another 40 years without winning a cup? Even by fluke. You will get your cup as long as you lead a semi average life span.
- youarewrong

Tell that to a TML fan.

I much rather watch good hockey and be happy after most games then suck for 5-6 years just to maybe win a cup.
- youarewrong

The Pittsburgh/Chicago model has been to suck for 5-6 years and then put together a team that wins a Stanley Cup and continues to be a Stanley Cup Contender.

I guess I'd rather be the post-lockout Ducks that the Sharks. Year after year, the Sharks are a very good team that finishes near the top of their conference. And year after year, they let you down by underperforming in the playoffs. Same with Vancouver. Steady year after year, but never able to pull it off. The Ducks have had mostly good years but some bad years. But they were able to take it to the next level and win a Cup. To me, that's all that matters, winning the last game of the season.

Anyone have confidence in a proper re-build in the cap era with Holmgren at the helm, or more importantly Snider?

Anyone have confidence in a proper re-build in the cap era with Holmgren at the helm, or more importantly Snider?
- flyer_nutter

yes
no

Reading through the first few pages, it seems esentially everyone is getting blame on this team, to some degree, which they do deserve to.

The one thing I havent heard mentioned once is management. The biggest consistency for years now, and the big wig crew that put together this sack of poop on ice.

It starts at the top, with Holmgren/Snider's ass. They have screwed this team into cap hell, been horrible with cap management, made stupid deals and left two coaches now, without the weapons needed to compete at an NHL level.

Its frustrating to say the least. Management is the #1 issue to me, they built this poop.
- flyer_nutter

If everyone on the team is getting blame, the underlying thought is that management did an overall poor job assembling the team.

Which is certainly a factor. They have a bad mix on defense, made worse by the incredibly fast decline of Timonen. Too many guys lack mobility and puck skills on the defense, and the guys that can move the puck are suspect in their own end.

They have talented young players that haven't developed as expected. They dress a 4th line that is absolutely useless. Their top players aren't playing up to their capabilities. They have a horrible lack of hockey sense from the top of the roster to the bottom of it.

The only thing that is working out is the reclamation project goalie. Absolutely the men who assembled the team have a share of the blame.

Anyone have confidence in a proper re-build in the cap era with Holmgren at the helm, or more importantly Snider?
- flyer_nutter

Well they say anything is possible.....

Anyone have confidence in a proper re-build in the cap era with Holmgren at the helm, or more importantly Snider?
- flyer_nutter

define proper rebuild

if you hang on to your young core as the Flyers seem to be doing of late, what does it matter if they bring in vets to fill the gaps? unless you want them to tank on purpose - cap space does nothing for you.

If everyone on the team is getting blame, the underlying thought is that management did an overall poor job assembling the team.

Which is certainly a factor. They have a bad mix on defense, made worse by the incredibly fast decline of Timonen. Too many guys lack mobility and puck skills on the defense, and the guys that can move the puck are suspect in their own end.

They have talented young players that haven't developed as expected. They dress a 4th line that is absolutely useless. Their top players aren't playing up to their capabilities. They have a horrible lack of hockey sense from the top of the roster to the bottom of it.

The only thing that is working out is the reclamation project goalie. Absolutely the men who assembled the team have a share of the blame.
- Jsaquella

Im with you on the fourth line thing. Big (frank)ing time.

Just have to look into the not too distant past at Carcillo-Betts-Lappy for an example. Every player matters, and its foolish not to think so. Look at Shaw last season in Chicago for an even better example.

Anyone have confidence in a proper re-build in the cap era with Holmgren at the helm, or more importantly Snider?
- flyer_nutter

With Holmgren? Yes. He's shown he can rebuild a team. The issue is when Snider gets involved.

I don't think Holmgren's trigger finger is as itchy if Snider's not poking his nose into the picture.

I much rather watch good hockey and be happy after most games then suck for 5-6 years just to maybe win a cup.
- youarewrong

I'd rather endure a few lean years while feeling confident that there is a thoughtful, long-range plan being put into action, than this constant wondering when the big let-down/collapse will happen with each of these inherently-flawed, hastily-put-together teams.

Her thoroughly glued hair and big teeth make me nuts.
- mayorofangrytown

for me it's the makeup. she looks like a doll.

If everyone on the team is getting blame, the underlying thought is that management did an overall poor job assembling the team.

Which is certainly a factor. They have a bad mix on defense, made worse by the incredibly fast decline of Timonen. Too many guys lack mobility and puck skills on the defense, and the guys that can move the puck are suspect in their own end.

They have talented young players that haven't developed as expected. They dress a 4th line that is absolutely useless. Their top players aren't playing up to their capabilities. They have a horrible lack of hockey sense from the top of the roster to the bottom of it.

The only thing that is working out is the reclamation project goalie. Absolutely the men who assembled the team have a share of the blame.
- Jsaquella

I'm on board this train.

Let me ask this first. Has the Phillies winning in 2008 made the last few years any easier to watch? Has it made all the crappy years from 1993-2004 all worth it? To me no... it doesnt. There were 10 abysmal years that it was painful to watch the team. There will likely be another 10 painful years before they are good again.

Another question? Do you think the Flyers realistically can go another 40 years without winning a cup? Even by fluke. You will get your cup as long as you lead a semi average life span.

I much rather watch good hockey and be happy after most games then suck for 5-6 years just to maybe win a cup.
- youarewrong

ask the blues or canucks or sabres if they'll go that distance? they've never won. hell, look at the chicago cubs. 1908 since they last won the world series. let that sink in. 1908.

Im with you on the fourth line thing. Big (frank)ing time.

Just have to look into the not too distant past at Carcillo-Betts-Lappy for an example. Every player matters, and its foolish not to think so. Look at Shaw last season in Chicago for an even better example.
- flyer_nutter

Look at every good team right now in the NHL. The chances are that the lowest average time on ice on the roster is around 8:30 per game, and that they have one or two guys at most under 10 minutes per game. Good teams, in general, have four good lines that can play 8-10 minutes every night.

The Flyers 4 lowest in terms of TOI are Hall at 8:26, Rinaldo at 7:10 and Newbury and Rosehill at just over 4 minutes each. There's a four minute gap between Hall and the next lowest skater, Michael Raffl, who averages 12 minutes a game.

I'm on board this train.
- AllInForFlyers

Grab the pitchforks

Im with you on the fourth line thing. Big (frank)ing time.

Just have to look into the not too distant past at Carcillo-Betts-Lappy for an example. Every player matters, and its foolish not to think so. Look at Shaw last season in Chicago for an even better example.
- flyer_nutter

Exactly -- Daniel Carcillo's been a healthy scratch this season, much of last season, part of it due to injury last season.

Daniel Carcillo, even with his various flaws, is still a better hockey player than two guys on our fourth line -- and he's a healthy scratch, more often than not.

As much as I want them to be, the Flyers aren't smarter than everybody else.

Look at every good team right now in the NHL. The chances are that the lowest average time on ice on the roster is around 8:30 per game, and that they have one or two guys at most under 10 minutes per game. Good teams, in general, have four good lines that can play 8-10 minutes every night.

The Flyers 4 lowest in terms of TOI are Hall at 8:26, Rinaldo at 7:10 and Newbury and Rosehill at just over 4 minutes each. There's a four minute gap between Hall and the next lowest skater, Michael Raffl, who averages 12 minutes a game.
- Jsaquella

I dont even give a damn about the numbers. Have never been a numbers guy, I go by what I see.

In this day an age, you need to have a good fourth line. What the Flyers employ is a joke. Is it the sole reason they are losing? Hell no, but it isnt doing jack poop to help them win. Every player matters.

I'd rather endure a few lean years while feeling confident that there is a thoughtful, long-range plan being put into action, than keep wondering when the big let-down/collapse will happen with each of these inherently-flawed, hastily-put-together teams.
- Tomahawk

That's the concern. I want to see a plan out of Holmgren or Hextall or whomever is building the team. They have some decent prospects in the pipeline, to go along with the young talent on hand. Develop a plan, and quick the short term fixes.

That's the concern. I want to see a plan out of Holmgren or Hextall or whomever is building the team. They have some decent prospects in the pipeline, to go along with the young talent on hand. Develop a plan, and quick the short term fixes.
- Jsaquella

agreed. will be interesting to see where this team is in 5 years. based on recent history, we shouldn't expect to see the plan in action, whatever that plan is.

I dont even give a damn about the numbers. Have never been a numbers guy, I go by what I see.

In this day an age, you need to have a good fourth line. What the Flyers employ is a joke. Is it the sole reason they are losing? Hell no, but it isnt doing jack poop to help them win. Every player matters.
- flyer_nutter

The numbers simply underline the issue. I try, as much as possible, to validate what I see with numbers. When you look across the board, the numbers illustrate that good teams roll four lines.