Has he gotten much better since he's been in the league? Wasnt his best year his first? Thats not promising.
- Just5

He's been up and down in his career to this point. Which is not uncommon for young defenseman. I think he had stretches of games last Season where he carried the defense and was excellent. We need that player back. Not sure what his issue is this Season to this point. But he's been disappointing so far.

Or they were just never that good to begin with.

I don't really ascribe to the theory that NHL players who are rushed will fail to develop. There's no real way to prove it. I can't imagine getting to play up ever crushes a kid. I'd guess that for some maybe their creativity is hampered or due to their early rise maybe they become misused. Couturier could fall into the latter category.

Still in all I think if a prospect is going to be an NHL player he will be.
- mayorofangrytown

I'd have to agree. I think every player is an individual.

Boston against the Pens at 8:00.

They do, and some never make it to the NHL level. But what makes you think that Schenn is done developing?
- MJL

Like I said, where is is today is where he was projected to be coming out of juniors - an aggressive stay at home d-man with a small amount of skill.

Where there is some room for improvement is that he was considered to have leadership qualities. Perhaps that can surface shortly once he gets his game in order.

I don't think the difference between Carle and Striet is catastrophic to this team, or to the defense. I've been pleased with Streit so far. One move can change everything. Holmgren has built a quality defense before. I think he can do it again. They also have some quality defense prospects.
- MJL

Catastrophic? No. But it's definitely not a good thing to be paying a lesser player almost the same amount of money as a guy you let walk.

I'm neutral on Streit so far. He's had good moments and bad moments. My issue is that they were basically stuck and needed to add him to correct the failure of losing Carle and not landing Weber or Suter.

Or they were just never that good to begin with.

I don't really ascribe to the theory that NHL players who are rushed will fail to develop. There's no real way to prove it. I can't imagine getting to play up ever crushes a kid. I'd guess that for some maybe their creativity is hampered or due to their early rise maybe they become misused. Couturier could fall into the latter category.

Still in all I think if a prospect is going to be an NHL player he will be.
- mayorofangrytown

Just suggesting it's always a possibility.

Yes, that's my answer. I don't see any reason not to trust current management.
- MJL

right, because they've done such an amazing job since the first lockout. the culture is fine and they don't need any other perspective, and they don't rebuild, and never again will they move youth/picks for vets and never again will they have a goalie debacle.

Or they were just never that good to begin with.

I don't really ascribe to the theory that NHL players who are rushed will fail to develop. There's no real way to prove it. I can't imagine getting to play up ever crushes a kid. I'd guess that for some maybe their creativity is hampered or due to their early rise maybe they become misused. Couturier could fall into the latter category.

Still in all I think if a prospect is going to be an NHL player he will be.
- mayorofangrytown

The issue is, that bringing a player up too early can lead to bad habits that he's unable to break later on down the road. If a kid comes in, full of confidence, and struggles because he simply wasn't ready to play at that level, it's very possible that he can't regain that confidence level back.

In a case like Couturier's, if the Flyers don't develop him offensively, then it's a missed opportunity and not maximizing value out of a prospect.

I was OK with the trade at the time, because I like Luke Schenn. I still do. But JvR has blossomed, while Schenn is still battling inconsistency on a night by night, shift by shift basis.

My opinion has changed over time. I still like Luke Schenn, but I also think that the move was a poor value move, especially in hindsight.
- Jsaquella

i wouldn't even say that JVR has blossomed. he's trending in the right direction. right now the flyers are getting the short end of the stick. i don't even care what happens to JVR now because he's gone, and there's no guarantee he would have turned into the player we wanted him to be had he stayed here. hopefully schenn becomes the player they need. it's just going to take awhile.

Like I said, where is is today is where he was projected to be coming out of juniors - an aggressive stay at home d-man with a small amount of skill.

Where there is some room for improvement is that he was considered to have leadership qualities. Perhaps that can surface shortly once he gets his game in order.
- 77rams

There's certainly other areas where there is a lot of room for improvement, then just leadership.

There's certainly other areas where there is a lot of room for improvement, then just leadership.
- MJL

For instance...

Catastrophic? No. But it's definitely not a good thing to be paying a lesser player almost the same amount of money as a guy you let walk.

I'm neutral on Streit so far. He's had good moments and bad moments. My issue is that they were basically stuck and needed to add him to correct the failure of losing Carle and not landing Weber or Suter.
- Jsaquella

I don't see it that way. They went for a bigger move, and it didn't work out. Should they then sit on their hands and not try and improve the team?

right, because they've done such an amazing job since the first lockout. the culture is fine and they don't need any other perspective, and they don't rebuild, and never again will they move youth/picks for vets and never again will they have a goalie debacle.
- hammarby31

They went from the first lockout, and a Season where they were last overall, to the Cup Finals in 2010. The GM then decided to make a radical change that they knew would take some time. And went with some young players to try and make it better for the future. Certainly there are some current growing pains, but I think some patience is warranted. I understand the current frustration. But I think this team is going to come out of it.

i wouldn't even say that JVR has blossomed. he's trending in the right direction. right now the flyers are getting the short end of the stick. i don't even care what happens to JVR now because he's gone, and there's no guarantee he would have turned into the player we wanted him to be had he stayed here. hopefully schenn becomes the player they need. it's just going to take awhile.
- hammarby31

The issue I have with it is more that they didn't get the full value out of an asset.

When they made the move, I fully expected them to bring Carle back and provide Schenn with a solid partner for a few years and allow him to develop-kind of like the Leafs are doing with JvR.

He's getting stable minutes, with good linemates and he's been very productive. Meanwhile, Schenn is one of a group of guys who lack good puck skills, aren't especially mobile and he's not getting the ice time or support to help him play better

For instance...
- 77rams

What's going to determine what level B Schenn reaches as a defenseman, in my opinion, is going to be his reading and anticipation of plays, defensive positioning, and decision making. Plenty of room for growth in those areas. He's shown that he can be a very good defenseman already. Needs to find some consistency, and get over whatever is the current issue in his game.

The issue I have with it is more that they didn't get the full value out of an asset.

When they made the move, I fully expected them to bring Carle back and provide Schenn with a solid partner for a few years and allow him to develop-kind of like the Leafs are doing with JvR.

He's getting stable minutes, with good linemates and he's been very productive. Meanwhile, Schenn is one of a group of guys who lack good puck skills, aren't especially mobile and he's not getting the ice time or support to help him play better
- Jsaquella

it's a bad mix.

btw, can you imagine if the flyers had pulled off the weber deal, and then sucked badly enough to have seth jones fall in their lap? think about that.

I don't see it that way. They went for a bigger move, and it didn't work out. Should they then sit on their hands and not try and improve the team?
- MJL

Not at all. But they should hedge their bets and maybe be a little more prudent.

Speculation or not, Holmgren publicly stated he expected to get a deal done with Carle, for "below market value". When that failed to materialize, he rolled the dice on bigger prizes and failed to get either.

Having an asset like JvR now would give him more flexibility to trade for a guy like Yandle, rather than sign a guy like Streit to an over 35 deal.

Regardless of the intent, the end result is icing the 29th best team in a 30 team league.

Is there a Pierre mute button? Man I can't stand him.
Sigh...

it's a bad mix.

btw, can you imagine if the flyers had pulled off the weber deal, and then sucked badly enough to have seth jones fall in their lap? think about that.
- hammarby31

If they had Weber, I doubt they are bad enough to land Morin, let alone Seth Jones

Not at all. But they should hedge their bets and maybe be a little more prudent.

Speculation or not, Holmgren publicly stated he expected to get a deal done with Carle, for "below market value". When that failed to materialize, he rolled the dice on bigger prizes and failed to get either.

Having an asset like JvR now would give him more flexibility to trade for a guy like Yandle, rather than sign a guy like Streit to an over 35 deal.

Regardless of the intent, the end result is icing the 29th best team in a 30 team league.
- Jsaquella

Holmgren also publicly stated that he wasn't going to trade Richards and Carter. He may have thought that at the time that he could sign Carle, but things obviously change as time goes on. I don't see the JVR trade and the Streit signing linked to each other. I like the JVR trade. Still think it was a good deal. The Season is only 11 games old. I think it's premature to say that the end result is the 29th best team in a 30 team League. And a lot of the moves made were for the future. That entails more then just this Season.

If they had Weber, I doubt they are bad enough to land Morin, let alone Seth Jones
- Jsaquella

that's why i used the word imagine. it's still possible. like seth jones dropping to 4th and literally falling into poile's lap.

that's why i used the word imagine. it's still possible. like seth jones dropping to 4th and literally falling into poile's lap.
- hammarby31

I'm not that surprised he fell...teams are a little gun shy at taking defensemen with the top pick, especially when kids like MacKinnon, Drouin and Barkov are sitting there.

I'm not that surprised he fell...teams are a little gun shy at taking defensemen with the top pick, especially when kids like MacKinnon, Drouin and Barkov are sitting there.
- Jsaquella

Did you see this about why Seth Jones fell to #4

http://www.cbc.ca/sports-...n/2013/10/seth-jones.html

Watching the Bruins/Penguins right now. The Flyers place way to much emphasis on taking the body, it leaves them out of position and chasing the play way to often. With a slower team as it is, they need to worry about making better plays on the puck. The game is too fast anymore to worry about finishing so many checks.

What's going to determine what level B Schenn reaches as a defenseman, in my opinion, is going to be his reading and anticipation of plays, defensive positioning, and decision making. Plenty of room for growth in those areas. He's shown that he can be a very good defenseman already. Needs to find some consistency, and get over whatever is the current issue in his game.
- MJL

I can agree with that simply because of his lack of foot speed, which he will need to overcome with good positioning. If he fails to progress with his read and react skills, he'll top out as a third line d-man.

And I agree that there is plenty of room for development simply because he's lacking in those areas to date.