I'm not expecting a GM to avoid all mistakes...I do expect the GM to avoid repeating similar mistakes time and time again. Rash decisions in handing out big money, long term contracts, making impatient trades that don't fill a specific need or cause the team to overpay when patience shows they could have filled the need more cheaply and counting heavily on players to perform at a high level after their 35th birthday have happened time and again to this team.
- Jsaquella

I don't think they've made similar mistakes. Nor do I think they've made rash decisions.

The trade wasn't made to address that. At the time of the trade, Carle was still Flyers property. Free Agency and the whole Weber situation hadn't played out. And Timonen was still a solid puck mover at the time. Goes towards how things quickly change as I pointed out earlier.
- MJL

Carle was Flyers property for another week after the trade. Let's not act as if they had him under lock and key. Timonen was the only other decent puck moving defenseman on the roster, and he was 36. Had they signed Carle, they were effectively out of the Weber and Suter sweepstakes.

So to say that they were fine and had plenty of puck moving, mobile defensemen is being disingenuous

Believe it or not, I was in favor of trading Richards and Carter, but not signing Bryzgalov to that term.

People might forget, but Richards was miserable here that last season. He was tired of the media, tired of Peter Laviolette, probably tired of Dry Island. And if you move Richards -- which I felt they had to do -- then yeah, you had to move Carter. The mistake was signing Bryzgalov to a contract term that was never going to work here, or anywhere else. Nine years for a goaltender...that wasn't going to work. It was never going to work.

MJL and JSaq, you are both right, in any number of ways. We need to be patient...because we don't have another choice. We don't have the assets to address our needs, because if we move anybody,all we do is open a hole somewhere else.

That is on Paul Holmgren -- who I like has a GM, but has also failed to address this team's needs for more skill and more mobility on the back end, which even with Mark Streit, was still obviously a team need. I've written before how we're missing about 90 points of production from the team that beat the Pens in the playoffs two years ago. Not replacing that is on Paul Holmgren.

Can JVR for Schenn work? Sure. If Schenn plays like last year, it's a nonissue. If Couturier turns into Michal Handzus, I won't complain. Brayden Schenn...I wish he was doing more, at his age, but we shouldn't move him until after the season, if he simply doesn't look like he can get the job done.That opens up room for Scott Laughton or Nick Cousins or someone else on the roster.

As much as I can see both sides and as much as I effing hate losing like this, we're married to this crap for this season. Either these young players show they are what they need them to be, or we need to move on -- Schenn's an 2009 pick. He'll have had enough time to show what he is.
- AllInForFlyers

My biggest issue with the front office is the seeming lack of a plan. They are good at acquiring talent, but they do a poor job of assembling a team.

This is my point on the JvR-Schenn trade. They needed a guy with mobility and good puck skills, even if they ended up keeping Carle or signing Suter. Pronger was done at that point, and they had three competent guys who either lacked mobility (Meszaros & Grossmann) or puck skills (Coburn). Eventually the young defenseman they added was going to need to replace Timonen.
Schenn, as well as he played last year, brings neither of those elements.

Carle was Flyers property for another week after the trade. Let's not act as if they had him under lock and key. Timonen was the only other decent puck moving defenseman on the roster, and he was 36. Had they signed Carle, they were effectively out of the Weber and Suter sweepstakes.

So to say that they were fine and had plenty of puck moving, mobile defensemen is being disingenuous
- Jsaquella

I didn't say that they had him under lock and key, I said he was still Flyers property. You, yourself brung up statements that Holmgren made that he felt that he could re-sign Carle. Signing Carle wouldn't effectively remove them from the Weber or Suter sweepstakes. They could always make a separate trade if need be. I think not looking at all the factors involved in the situation and just using hindsight to judge moves is being disingenuous.

Wasn't there cap issues when they didn't resign Carle?

Wasn't there cap issues when they didn't resign Carle?
- jstross

There were tagging space issues during the Season.

Wasn't there cap issues when they didn't resign Carle?
- jstross

Yeah, wouldn't it have been nice to have an additional $1.1M of tagging space to get Carle signed?

Yeah, wouldn't it have been nice to have an additional $1.1M of tagging space to get Carle signed?
- Tomahawk

Do you know that 1.1M of additional tagging space would've been enough to get it done?

My biggest issue with the front office is the seeming lack of a plan. They are good at acquiring talent, but they do a poor job of assembling a team.

This is my point on the JvR-Schenn trade. They needed a guy with mobility and good puck skills, even if they ended up keeping Carle or signing Suter. Pronger was done at that point, and they had three competent guys who either lacked mobility (Meszaros & Grossmann) or puck skills (Coburn). Eventually the young defenseman they added was going to need to replace Timonen.
Schenn, as well as he played last year, brings neither of those elements.
- Jsaquella

Agreed -- you can move JVR, and you can move JVR for Schenn, but you can't not replace Carle and Pronger's ability to move the puck. Common sense says that you move JVR for the puckmover, if you were going to move JVR. But Holmgren should nver have let us go into last season like we did...we were clearly weaker than the team New Jersey beat.

I didn't say that they had him under lock and key, I said he was still Flyers property. You, yourself brung up statements that Holmgren made that he felt that he could re-sign Carle. Signing Carle wouldn't effectively remove them from the Weber or Suter sweepstakes. They could always make a separate trade if need be. I think not looking at all the factors involved in the situation and just using hindsight to judge moves is being disingenuous.
- MJL

You're not looking at all the factors yourself.

They did need a young defenseman. Absolutely, no argument. But they needed one who had mobility and could move the puck well. They had three 26 or 27 year old defensemen who either lacked mobility or puck skills or both. They had two defensemen with good mobility and puck skills, one of whom was 36 and one of whom was a week away from entering unrestricted free agency.

Which need seems more pressing?

They add Schenn and lose Carle, then fail to add either Suter or Weber. Now, 18 months later, they still lack mobility and puck skills on the blue line, and all four of those defensemen they had in the summer of 2012(Coburn, Meszaros, Grossmann & Schenn), that they could have easily moved, are still here.

So, they traded a very valuable asset for a guy that joined three others who had similar traits, and the biggest need is the same thing it was when they made the trade...I'd have to say that that was kind of a dumb move

Agreed -- you can move JVR, and you can move JVR for Schenn, but you can't not replace Carle and Pronger's ability to move the puck. Common sense says that you move JVR for the puckmover, if you were going to move JVR. But Holmgren should nver have let us go into last season like we did...we were clearly weaker than the team New Jersey beat.
- AllInForFlyers

That ignores the timeline. Schenn was traded for before Carle left for free agency.

Agreed -- you can move JVR, and you can move JVR for Schenn, but you can't not replace Carle and Pronger's ability to move the puck. Common sense says that you move JVR for the puckmover, if you were going to move JVR. But Holmgren should nver have let us go into last season like we did...we were clearly weaker than the team New Jersey beat.
- AllInForFlyers

Had they made the JvR for Schenn trade when it was first rumored-prior to the trade for Grossmann and Kubina-it would have made more sense. They had a big need for defense help at the time, as Pronger and Meszaros were out and Bourdon and Marshall were playing regularly.

But to make it after the fact, when they had Grossmann, Coburn & Meszaros and the lone guy under contract who was a good with the puck was 36 year old...it made less sense.

That ignores the timeline. Schenn was traded for before Carle left for free agency.
- MJL

Yes. The Flyers acquired Schenn 7 days before Carle hit free agency

You're not looking at all the factors yourself.

They did need a young defenseman. Absolutely, no argument. But they needed one who had mobility and could move the puck well. They had three 26 or 27 year old defensemen who either lacked mobility or puck skills or both. They had two defensemen with good mobility and puck skills, one of whom was 36 and one of whom was a week away from entering unrestricted free agency.

Which need seems more pressing?

They add Schenn and lose Carle, then fail to add either Suter or Weber. Now, 18 months later, they still lack mobility and puck skills on the blue line, and all four of those defensemen they had in the summer of 2012(Coburn, Meszaros, Grossmann & Schenn), that they could have easily moved, are still here.

So, they traded a very valuable asset for a guy that joined three others who had similar traits, and the biggest need is the same thing it was when they made the trade...I'd have to say that that was kind of a dumb move
- Jsaquella

I'm not ignoring all the factors at all. I'm considering what Holmgren may have thought. That he had the potential to add Suter, Weber, or retain Carle. You assessing what was more pressing after the fact. And aren't putting yourself in the same situation and with the same information that Holmgren had when making the decisions that he made. Again, we disagree here. Adding Luke Schenn was a good move for this team in my opinion. And since were talking about pressing needs, adding a young promising defenseman was a bigger need then a young promising winger. And another thing that isn't being considered is that young promising defensman that can move the puck has to be available. A GM looks at a specific deal and says, does this make the team better? If he feels it does, he makes the deal.

joe pavelski

That ignores the timeline. Schenn was traded for before Carle left for free agency.
- MJL

But regardless, Kimmo Timonen was 36 years old. You can only trade JVR once. You have to make a trade that addresses that need.

Do you know that 1.1M of additional tagging space would've been enough to get it done?
- MJL

Sure, that's when we bring the idiocy of signing Lilja to a 2-year deal for no reason, and taking on Matt Walker's contract as part of making Gagne go away, and the colossal turd that was the Bryzgalov signing into the conversation.

Tough being a flyers fan these days... The inabitu to protect a lead is the most frustrating to me...

I'm not ignoring all the factors at all. I'm considering what Holmgren may have thought. That he had the potential to add Suter, Weber, or retain Carle. You assessing what was more pressing after the fact. And aren't putting yourself in the same situation and with the same information that Holmgren had when making the decisions that he made. Again, we disagree here. Adding Luke Schenn was a good move for this team in my opinion. And since were talking about pressing needs, adding a young promising defenseman was a bigger need then a young promising winger. And another thing that isn't being considered is that young promising defensman that can move the puck has to be available. A GM looks at a specific deal and says, does this make the team better? If he feels it does, he makes the deal.
- MJL

Not saying adding Schenn was necessarily a bad move. They way it was done and the cost paid was.

Even if the Flyers kept Carle, or added Suter or Weber, the more pressing need was the eventual replacement of the 36 year old Timonen, rather than the replacement of the 27 year old Grossmann, Coburn or Meszaros(two of whom had signed 4 year extensions only months prior to the addition of Schenn).

Sure, that's when we bring the idiocy of signing Lilja to a 2-year deal for no reason, and taking on Matt Walker's contract as part of making Gagne go away, and the colossal turd that was the Bryzgalov signing into the conversation.
- Tomahawk

Those deals kill your flexibility.

But regardless, Kimmo Timonen was 36 years old. You can only trade JVR once. You have to make a trade that addresses that need.
- AllInForFlyers

Not true. There are other needs on a team. You can't have tunnel vision. If a GM thinks a deal is a good deal for the team, he makes the deal. Regardless of if there are other needs on the team.

Sure, that's when we bring the idiocy of signing Lilja to a 2-year deal for no reason, and taking on Matt Walker's contract as part of making Gagne go away, and the colossal turd that was the Bryzgalov signing into the conversation.
- Tomahawk

Dodged the question.

Not true. There are other needs on a team. You can't have tunnel vision. If a GM thinks a deal is a good deal for the team, he makes the deal. Regardless of if there are other needs on the team.
- MJL

And when it turns out he was wrong...we pat him on the back and say, "It's OK Champ, we'll get 'em next time"?

Not saying adding Schenn was necessarily a bad move. They way it was done and the cost paid was.

Even if the Flyers kept Carle, or added Suter or Weber, the more pressing need was the eventual replacement of the 36 year old Timonen, rather than the replacement of the 27 year old Grossmann, Coburn or Meszaros(two of whom had signed 4 year extensions only months prior to the addition of Schenn).
- Jsaquella

We obviously disagree on a lot of things here. I respect your opinion. But I think it's pointless to continue. Enjoyed the debate and your point of view. I'm out, have to get some sleep. Good night.

joe pavelski
- 2Real

*THROWS CHAIR*