I'm not in tune enough with the Philly sports scene or scene in general to know what it is. They do need to find some energy and desire however. We have a couple of guys on our team that seem to bring it every game, the most notable is probably Burrows who just makes the most of his limited talent with pure hustle.

Also, in Philly I think a true defensive leader on your team would be great. Somebody who just makes the unit more cohesive. You've really been missing Pronger's leadership back there almost as much as his minutes.
- golfingsince

Which is the thing. They have too much "secondary" in terms of player line-ups. You wont easily find a #1 d-man though, and teams wont even trade them imo. You can try and trade for a guy like Giordano, or J-Bow, and pretend they are true 1's but they are not.

This will have to be fixed with the way of the draft. That defense in particular.

Which is the thing. They have too much "secondary" in terms of player line-ups. You wont easily find a #1 d-man though, and teams wont even trade them imo. You can try and trade for a guy like Giordano, or J-Bow, and pretend they are true 1's but they are not.

This will have to be fixed with the way of the draft. That defense in particular.
- flyer_nutter

That takes 5 years usually.

Holmgren started out really great, but to be honest he didnt have such a hard time. The best trade he really made was Coburn for Zhitnik. Bringing in Lupul/Smith.

A lot of debate on the Pronger trade, but I would make that any day of the week. He brought in a passionate coach in Laviolette, who imo was a great leader, even if he had a shelf life.

In terms of FA he signed Timonen, Hartnell, Lappy and a few others that were great signings at the time. Unfortunately, and not all will agree with me here, Holmgren has been very questionable since his first couple years here. The number of bad trades have gone up, and so has throwing big money in the wrong directions.

I dont know how much of a hand Snider has had in things, but the luster of Holmgren has wore off for me.
- flyer_nutter

Signed Briere too. The turnaround from bottom to playoffs again was quick because of those big UFAs they signed. That just doesn't seem to be a viable strategy anymore, as teams continually lock these guys up now to long deals. Free agency seems to have fewer and fewer good players in it anymore, and there's no guarantee you'll even get the guy you want. It's not a good way to "build" IMO. It's a good way to supplement what is already built via drafting or good trades

I dont think one player is a fix here. I think the issue with G and Richards was the same. Young players put into a role too soon, of being the face of the franchise, after breakout years. Expected to be superstars, when really they are good stars, so to speak.

The Flyers need a lot of things, but its my firm belief that what they need most is a new direction from the very top, thats past Holmgren. In terms of actual players that would help, obviously a leader like Richards would. Although I think the defense on this team is a more pressing need. They miss Pronger, or a "younger" Timonen more than they do Richards imo.
- flyer_nutter

Call me crazy but I think Pronger had a big deal in shipping Carter and Richards out...Im not saying Pronger went in and said both had to go but I just think Homer wanted Prongs to be the leader of the pack and knew there would be issues with that. Hindsight is 20/20 but man Carter, Richards, Giroux and JVR would have been a nice core, real nice. The regressions of Schenn and Couts, Simmonds have a lot of people including myself wondering what could have been. I dont think they would have been this bad thats for sure.

How's the fallout? Just they lost 7-0

Well they could have built a team that had the flash of Giroux and Richards on the same team, but obviously they decided to go in a different direction. For some reason, bringing up the Richards/Carter deals is a big can of worms to some fans though. We're not supposed to talk about it. Like Fight Club
- eayost

I will stand by, to the very end, that those two were dealt because the organization felt they needed a culture change.

That too much "partying" or whatever, was going on. Not enough effort from the top guys, and not enough consistency. If that is how they felt so be it. The problem is though, that lack of effort still remains. I'm just not sure if this time its simply because they arent good enough.

You can have that d-core trying as much as they want, or a guy like Simmonds, but if guys just dont have the skill, they dont have the skill.

Its more than one issue with the team.

That takes 5 years usually.
- golfingsince

A few of us, and again this is not all, do question some of the drafting here. Thats a big reason why I want a change.

The organization knew it needed replacements for Pronger, and Timonen, or would very shortly. Instead of trying to address that need they go after Couturier, while having Hamilton on the board.

Last season, they make an off-the-board pick with a guy like Morin. A guy who is pretty much projected to stay as a defensive d-man.

The issue with this defense, and largely with the team, is that too many players have one dimensional games. Now while Morin, is young, and I wish him all the best, you would think they realised that you need more "complete" d-men in today's NHL.

Call me crazy but I think Pronger had a big deal in shipping Carter and Richards out...Im not saying Pronger went in and said both had to go but I just think Homer wanted Prongs to be the leader of the pack and knew there would be issues with that. Hindsight is 20/20 but man Carter, Richards, Giroux and JVR would have been a nice core, real nice. The regressions of Schenn and Couts, Simmonds have a lot of people including myself wondering what could have been. I dont think they would have been this bad thats for sure.
- flyerfan28

Unfortunately that hypothetical core has no defensemen in it, and that continues to be an issue here, and it's not going to be fixed via offer sheets or UFAs. Thanks god they drafted 2 Dmen this past draft. At least they give themselves a chance to find some good Dmen

Unfortunately that hypothetical core has no defensemen in it, and that continues to be an issue here, and it's not going to be fixed via offer sheets or UFAs. Thanks god they drafted 2 Dmen this past draft. At least they give themselves a chance to find some good Dmen
- eayost

I would bet my testicles Morin will be up here next season.

Thats what I mean about a change from the top. Morin shouldnt even touch NHL ice for a few years.

Edit: New thread

Make what Weber deal? You don't have enough to acquire him. Don't say one of the Schenns and the next Ron Francis either. That isn't close to being enough.

On a side note, would have been cool if Hunter was the coach for the Caps. Berube v. Hunter would have been a great way to finish off the night.
- Oneonta Penguin

Berube would have pummeled Hunter.

I will stand by, to the very end, that those two were dealt because the organization felt they needed a culture change.

That too much "partying" or whatever, was going on. Not enough effort from the top guys, and not enough consistency. If that is how they felt so be it. The problem is though, that lack of effort still remains. I'm just not sure if this time its simply because they arent good enough.

You can have that d-core trying as much as they want, or a guy like Simmonds, but if guys just dont have the skill, they dont have the skill.

Its more than one issue with the team.
- flyer_nutter

Well it sounded pretty obvious that Richards didn't get along with Laviolette for whatever reasons. That probably had as much to do with things as any of the ancillary things people speculate about. And at the time the deals were good value (though no defenseman was added). I can't imagine the Flyers thought after making those deals they'd be in this position now though.

Well it sounded pretty obvious that Richards didn't get along with Laviolette for whatever reasons. That probably had as much to do with things as any of the ancillary things people speculate about. And at the time the deals were good value (though no defenseman was added). I can't imagine the Flyers thought after making those deals they'd be in this position now though.
- eayost

Definately not. I think some of the belief was that the pieces coming in would contribute.

While Voracek has to a degree, bSchenn and Coots have esentially not. Simmonds did last season, but has not this year. They lost those players, and JVR.

Nobody has stepped up since other than LeCavalier.

I would bet my testicles Morin will be up here next season.

Thats what I mean about a change from the top. Morin shouldnt even touch NHL ice for a few years.

Edit: New thread
- flyer_nutter

I'm one of the guys that thinks if you show you deserve to play, than you should play. If Morin earns a spot, he should be here IMO. I don't think guys get ruined or rushed... maybe they were just never destined to make it big regardless. It's pretty much impossible to prove either way. But even if Morin is here next year, I wouldn't be terribly worried about it as long as he shows he can actually hang and learn.

Unfortunately that hypothetical core has no defensemen in it, and that continues to be an issue here, and it's not going to be fixed via offer sheets or UFAs. Thanks god they drafted 2 Dmen this past draft. At least they give themselves a chance to find some good Dmen
- eayost

Luke is nice player and all, but no franking way was/is he worth JVR straightup. Toronto must be laughing still about that one. i dont think this team would have missed much without him in the lineup. Too, we probably dont sign Bryz either but all that is neither here nor there.

Definately not. I think some of the belief was that the pieces coming in would contribute.

While Voracek has to a degree, bSchenn and Coots have esentially not. Simmonds did last season, but has not this year. They lost those players, and JVR.

Nobody has stepped up since other than LeCavalier.
- flyer_nutter

They figured Giroux, Briere, Hartnell, Kimmo, Pronger would carry the load while B Schenn and Couturier developed into good players. Voracek was more developed so the fits in too. Clearly things went awry with the load carriers, and with Schenn and Couturier maybe developing slower than anticipated... here we are.

Luke is nice player and all, but no franking way was/is he worth JVR straightup. Toronto must be laughing still about that one. i dont think this team would have missed much without him in the lineup. Too, we probably dont sign Bryz either but all that is neither here nor there.
- flyerfan28

I would have liked a defenseman with a different skill set than Schenn no doubt. And if you couldn't get one, keep JVR until you can.

If the Flyers do continue to draft mostly forwards at the high rounds, and draft "best player available", at some point you do need to move these guys for defensemen. So trading JVR in and of itself is ok, just as long as you add the right piece. I'm not convinced the right piece was really added.

I would have liked a defenseman with a different skill set than Schenn no doubt. And if you couldn't get one, keep JVR until you can.

If the Flyers do continue to draft mostly forwards at the high rounds, and draft "best player available", at some point you do need to move these guys for defensemen. So trading JVR in and of itself is ok, just as long as you add the right piece. I'm not convinced the right piece was really added.
- eayost

Well the thing is, at the time JVR was floundering with inconsistency.

Luke Schenn was a monster last year, and has slipped big time. I do agree though, you traded for a one dimensional guy in Luke Schenn. That was the issue.

Well the thing is, at the time JVR was floundering with inconsistency.

Luke Schenn was a monster last year, and has slipped big time. I do agree though, you traded for a one dimensional guy in Luke Schenn. That was the issue.
- flyer_nutter

Good point, JVR wasnt the most consistent player but you could see the potential and he could downright dominate games. Luke has reverted back to what he was when he was in Toronto's doghouse. Give Burke credit though, he never budged on only giving Luke for JVR and nothing more.

That takes 5 years usually.
- golfingsince

Or 8-10 if you're the leafs.